# Are there any known "lost arts"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 23, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168 "2003-10-23T19:02:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/121 "2003-10-27T02:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > > -If it was less likely to bend (and stay bent) less likely to dull, less likely to break, and held a sharper edge, I’d say all those are decided advantages. But take into consideration the forces we’re tlaking about. A finely crafted sword is already very unlikely to brake during combat in the hands of a skilled medieval swordsman. If you make a sword that can withstand the weight of a truck, what does it matter? Since we ar enot delaing with trucks both weapons would function equally on the battlefield. And that’s my point. With today’s technology we can make a neat and interesting sword. Sort of like a novelty item. But in combat it would offer no significant advantage to the swordsman. > [@](#): > > _Mano-a`-mano_ swordfighting, of course, being more than just a match of sword technology. Obviously, in duel between Musahsi vs Carrot Top, the quality of each’s weaponry is pretty much irrelevant. > > Musashi, point in fact, tended to duel with _bokken_, or wooden training swords, as often as live steel. So I hear. I’ve yet to pick up the book of the five rings, mainly because Kenjitsu doesn’t interest me much, and partly because there no good schools that approach it as a martial art (rather than purely a sport -Kendo) around my area. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/122 "2003-10-27T02:45:23Z")
Didn’t finish my post… As a hijack (like I need to state this! 🙂 ) how much of the five rings is fiction and how much is history? I’m not sure if the book is an autobiography, a manuscript on Kenjitsu, or both? ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/123 "2003-10-27T03:25:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godzillatemple \* > \*\*People made popcorn without microwaves??? > > 😃 \*\* I don’t buy it. Sounds like something from _Chariots of the Gods_ or some such tripe. Next thing you know people will be saying that food could be prepared before it was intermeshed with industrial waste, put into little easy to heat trays, and sold frozen. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/124 "2003-10-27T06:07:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PhilAlex \* > \*\*PS: Damascus isn’t lost, not by a longshot. Many expensive blades come with a Damascus option, including the fabulous Chris Reeve Sebenza \*\* Read the links already posted about Damascus blades. So-called modern damascus knife blades and old shotgun barrels are laminated as are samurai swords. True Damascus is not. The surface patterns are a result of the carbide and vanadium inclusions reacting to the forging process. The _Scientific American_ article showed how some very exotic patterns were achieved but none by laminating. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/125 "2003-10-27T06:38:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > \*\*Obviously, in duel between Musahsi vs Carrot Top, the quality of each’s weaponry is pretty much irrelevant. \*\* Put that on pay-per-view and not only could we eliminate the national debt, we could pay for the rebuilding of Iraqi, buy NASA about 30 fleets of whatever the next generation spacecraft will be and _still_ have money left over! ---
**Author:** ![dakravel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@dakravel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dakravel)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/126 "2003-10-27T07:59:17Z")
That’d be after we cashed in on the technology that allowed us to bring a man from the medieval era of Japan back to life. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/127 "2003-10-27T09:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kinthalis \* > \*\*But take into consideration the forces we’re tlaking about. A finely crafted sword is already very unlikely to brake during combat in the hands of a skilled medieval swordsman. If you make a sword that can withstand the weight of a truck, what does it matter? Since we ar enot delaing with trucks both weapons would function equally on the battlefield. > > And that’s my point. With today’s technology we can make a neat and interesting sword. Sort of like a novelty item. But in combat it would offer no significant advantage to the swordsman.\*\* -And back in the real world, we’re not talking about magical blades that can stop, nor support, a truck. Both modern and well-crafted ancient blades can be very good, but they are, after all, still just long, slender bars of steel. A yard-long lever, if you will, and that gives a great deal of mechanical advantage. And in swordfighting- especially mideval European hack-and-slash (as opposed to a more elegant thrust-and-parry like the later Japanese or Renaissance-era fencing) the combatants are necessarily swinging them with a great deal of force. Sword-on-sword strike-and-parry combat causes edge-on-edge contact. The edges chip, the notch in the blade becomes a weak point, and another hard blow bends or breaks the blade at that point. This happened disturbingly often, and tended to be fatal to the one with the freshly truncated blade. Yes, it happened with the best blades the Japanese 'smiths could muster, and it happened with the best Damascus blades. Moderns steels and manufacturing simply make better blades- yes they can still break, but they’re considerably less likely to. Again, that _is_ a significant advantage. > [@](#): > > \*\*how much of the five rings is fiction and how much is history? I’m not sure if the book is an autobiography, a manuscript on Kenjitsu, or both? \*\* -A good question. I’m not sure. It’s been many years since I read it (and it was a fairly simple volume, illustrated with some of his paintings) and I honestly don’t recall much. I’d say it’s a little of each. The era is far enough back that memory and records are spotty, but I doubt it’s all made up from whole cloth. The only part I recall from the book- and, now that I think about it, it may have been a different book entirely- was the story of two master swordsmen that met for a duel. Both drew and struck a ready stance, but neither attacked. Neither combatant could sense the least opening or weakness in the other, so they stood there, primed, ready, prepared, for perhaps a couple of hours. Eventually both lowered their blades and sheathed them. The duel ended with no blows struck. The way I recall it, Musashi was declared the winner. His style tended towards allowing his opponent to make the attack, which he would then counter. His opponent in this duel, was known for his tendency to try to strike the first blow. So Musashi awaited the attack but gave no opening, while his opponent made no attack. Ergo, Musahi won. Assuming, of course, I recall it correctly. It’s been many years. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/128 "2003-10-27T12:36:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > And back in the real world, we’re not talking about magical blades that can stop, nor support, a truck. I agree with you there. Some posters though appear to attribute powers to modern steel that are just not realistic. That was my point 😉 > [@](#): > > Both modern and well-crafted ancient blades can be very good, but they are, after all, still just long, slender bars of steel. A yard-long lever, if you will, and that gives a great deal of mechanical advantage. Hmm, ok, I agree here too. > [@](#): > > And in swordfighting- especially mideval European hack-and-slash (as opposed to a more elegant thrust-and-parry like the later Japanese or Renaissance-era fencing) the combatants are necessarily swinging them with a great deal of force. Ok here is where you open a while cna of worms. Let me guess, your a japanimation fan? Wow, this is just silly, and very innacurate assesment of Medieval European swordsmanship. If you don’t know anythign about the subject, please do not make sweeping generalizations. Atleast say something like “With my limited knowledge on the subject I would think \_\_\_\_\_\_”. Your comparison of kenjitsu and european swordplay is simply erroneous. Kenjitsu, thrust and parry? The Katana (the main samurai sword) is not a thrusting weapon. The Samurai’s primary weapon isn’t even his sword, it’s his spear and bow. > [@](#): > > Sword-on-sword strike-and-parry combat causes edge-on-edge contact. The edges chip, the notch in the blade becomes a weak point, and another hard blow bends or breaks the blade at that point. This happened disturbingly often, and tended to be fatal to the one with the freshly truncated blade. Did you even bother to read ANY of what I wrote so far in this thread. Mind you I’m not the most articulate guy you’ll meet, but I think I made a couple of points back there on just this very topic. What you claim here is UTTERLY FALSE. This type of combat is seen in movies and on stage. This is NOT how european swordsmen fought with swords. There is no edge to edge smashing of swords. As you point out, this would cause terrible damage to a blade. Here is an exmaple of the very basics of blocking, how it is taught, and the reasons why it is done: [http://www.thearma.org/essays/parrying.htm](http://www.thearma.org/essays/parrying.htm) > [@](#): > > Yes, it happened with the best blades the Japanese 'smiths could muster, and it happened with the best Damascus blades. > > Moderns steels and manufacturing simply make better blades- yes they can still break, but they’re considerably less likely to. Again, that _is_ a significant advantage. Again not really, not int he hands of a superior swordsman. > [@](#): > > -A good question. I’m not sure. It’s been many years since I read it (and it was a fairly simple volume, illustrated with some of his paintings) and I honestly don’t recall much. > > I’d say it’s a little of each. The era is far enough back that memory and records are spotty, but I doubt it’s all made up from whole cloth. > > The only part I recall from the book- and, now that I think about it, it may have been a different book entirely- was the story of two master swordsmen that met for a duel. Both drew and struck a ready stance, but neither attacked. Neither combatant could sense the least opening or weakness in the other, so they stood there, primed, ready, prepared, for perhaps a couple of hours. > > Eventually both lowered their blades and sheathed them. The duel ended with no blows struck. > > The way I recall it, Musashi was declared the winner. His style tended towards allowing his opponent to make the attack, which he would then counter. His opponent in this duel, was known for his tendency to try to strike the first blow. > > So Musashi awaited the attack but gave no opening, while his opponent made no attack. Ergo, Musahi won. > > Assuming, of course, I recall it correctly. It’s been many years. Wow. This goes to show how different Kenjitsu must be. In a match, even against someone who is a better swordsman I would logically try and CREATE an opening. I wouldn’t just stand there hoping for one to show up. I’m gonna stop and barnes and noble tonight see if they have a copy, sound slike a good read. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/129 "2003-10-27T14:14:26Z")
**ralph** and **Tuckerfan** , the varnish hypothesis is almost certainly a myth. From the [article](http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/4/8) I linked to earlier: > [@](#): > > ultraviolet photography has revealed that many fine-sounding Italian violins have lost almost all their original varnish, and were recoated during the 19th century or later. The composition of the varnish is therefore unlikely to be the long-lost secret Regarding wood selection, you do not simply hit a tree and listen to the sound it produces! The best strength to weight ratio is yielded by slow growing spruce near the tree line at the top of a mountain - this is where the Cremonese masters got their wood from, and where violin makers get their best wood today. This wood must then be sawn precisely perpendicularly to the grain. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/130 "2003-10-27T14:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\ ***ralph** and **Tuckerfan** , the varnish hypothesis is almost certainly a myth. From the [article](http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/4/8) I linked to earlier: > > Regarding wood selection, you do not simply hit a tree and listen to the sound it produces! The best strength to weight ratio is yielded by slow growing spruce near the tree line at the top of a mountain - this is where the Cremonese masters got their wood from, and where violin makers get their best wood today. This wood must then be sawn precisely perpendicularly to the grain. \*\* Well, I remember reading years ago a theory that the “real” secret to Stadavarius violins was the fact that they were quenched by running them through the belly of a handy slave, which just happened to be at the optimal temperature for that sort of thing… ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/131 "2003-10-27T14:37:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wikkit \* > \*\*I like Randi, but he doesn’t provide any cites either. Randi says can’t be any better than random says. \*\* And several people agreed heartily with you and sent him lots of mails so he wrote about the topic again in the next weekly column: [http://www.randi.org/jr/112202.html](http://www.randi.org/jr/112202.html) Some of these balls are natural, others have been created by hand, and although the exact method isn’t known it’s not considered a ‘mystery that these primitives could create…’. Here’s a link from Randi’s column to a page about the Costa Rican balls, which are man made. [http://www.ku.edu/~hoopes/balls/](http://www.ku.edu/~hoopes/balls/) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/132 "2003-10-27T21:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > That’d be after we cashed in on the technology that allowed us to bring a man from the medieval era of Japan back to life. I dunno, Musahsi’s decomposing corpse could probably still beat Carrot Top… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/133 "2003-10-27T21:59:51Z")
> [@](#): > > That’d be after we cashed in on the technology that allowed us to bring a man from the medieval era of Japan back to life. I dunno, Musahsi’s decomposing corpse could probably still beat Carrot Top… ---
**Author:** ![Wikkit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c0e974/32.png) [@Wikkit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wikkit)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/134 "2003-10-27T23:25:05Z")
Thanks, **naita**. I’ve been thinking of carving one from the white St. Peter sandstone near here. It wouldn’t be very durable, but it would be odd. **Kinthalis** , your premise that modern steels aren’t vastly superior to steel of even 100 years ago is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/135 "2003-10-27T23:40:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wikkit \* > \*\*Kinthalis, your premise that modern steels aren’t vastly superior to steel of even 100 years ago is absurd. Can you please point out where I said that? I said that today’s steel would afford no qualities (or rather very few) to a SWORD that would be beneficient to the swordsman on the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/136 "2003-10-27T23:41:38Z")
Hey, since I have NOTHING to add to the ongoing discussion about swords, I another have a lost art. What about [the castrati?](http://www.sonyclassics.com/farinelli/about/fcastrati.html) Maybe one these swords were used to separate them franks and beans. Fwiip! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/137 "2003-10-27T23:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kinthalis \* > \*\*I said that today’s steel would afford no qualities (or rather very few) to a SWORD that would be beneficient to the swordsman on the battlefield. \*\* We seem to be focusing pretty tightly on what _steel_ is better for swords. Why must a sword be made of steel? If we are talking about making the best possible sword, I would bet every single penny I have that todays metallurgists would come up with a material that kicks the snot out of damascus steel. Maybe we couldn’t come up with a superior bronze sword either, but what swordsman would bother with one when superior materials are available? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/138 "2003-10-28T00:09:53Z")
I think we may be able to come up with such a steel, but I haven’t learned of one yet. As for another material take a look at this: [http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/thebest.html](http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/thebest.html) > [@](#): > > Based on the above information, steel is still the best for swords. Fantasy misconceptions and fiction aside, a sword is best made with steel that is correctly forged (or ground to shape) and subjected to proper heat treating to achieve performance. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/139 "2003-10-28T02:11:34Z")
Hmmmm… How about a sword made from solid titanium? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168/140 "2003-10-28T02:15:41Z")
From the article I linked to above: > [@](#): > > Titantium - Most seem to think that the miracle metal would usually be “titanium” for swords. In actual fact, titanium is only a little better (and more expensive) than aluminum. (Both are usually in alloyed form, hence if a bar of titanium is purchased, it is usually a titanium alloy, similar to commercial aluminum being in alloyed form.) Both have a higher strength-to-weight ratio than steel. However, in the form of swords, titanium-alloy has not reached the hardness of steel in order to be of any effective use as a real sword. The best application in swords would be a thick-edged stage prop - however, aluminum will do just as well with negligible difference in performance and a tremendous savings in price. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-known-lost-arts/209168.md?page=8)