# Are there any "left wing" libertarians? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816 "2013-04-16T04:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/1 "2013-04-16T04:29:34Z")
Yes the title is a contradiction in terms, but it seems like the libertarian party has been hijacked by the tea party crowd who is mostly worried that billionaires and corporations are marginalized and shouldn’t have to pay taxes and need more of a voice and that the USA isn’t as much of a christian theocracy as it should be. Are there libertarians more concerned with making it possible for you to have 3 husbands and 2 wives who all own guns and celebrate your wedding smoking cigars at a bar whose owner determines whether smoking is allowed. While you shoot up heroin and drink big gulp’s loaded with sugar and eat fois gras and drink raw milk, then go home to make some new porn videos to post to your website? Basically more concerned with individual rights and getting the government out of the business of running people’s lives and forcing them to live healthy? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/2 "2013-04-16T04:36:49Z")
The Libertarian Party remains socially libertarian, supporting abortion rights and gay marriage. You seem to be confusing the Libertarian Party with Congressman Ron Paul. That said there are various left-libertarians-I think Noam Chomsky considers himself one. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/3 "2013-04-16T05:45:50Z")
It’s been said that there are three kinds of libertarians: gun-totin’, tax-dodgin’, and dope-smokin’. The last variety tend to be vaguely left-wing. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/4 "2013-04-16T05:53:09Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The Libertarian Party remains socially libertarian, supporting abortion rights and gay marriage. You seem to be confusing the Libertarian Party with Congressman Ron Paul. > > That said there are various left-libertarians-I think Noam Chomsky considers himself one. True but popular perception of the Libertarian “brand” is becoming increasingly associated with the bullet points grude touched on. True libertarians are a tiny, tiny part of the electorate and if they are going to hitch a ride on a the (relative) 800 lb demographic Teaparty gorilla of middle aged and older white evangelicals in full racial panic they are going to come to be associated with the gorilla. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/5 "2013-04-16T06:05:39Z")
I think of Dan Carlin as a leftist libertarian. His [Common Sense podcast](http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/csarchive) covers a lot of the stuff that neither democrats or republicans really want to talk about but which address the fundamental systemic problems we have. He’s generally not as concerned with economic issues and certainly doesn’t see the richest people in the history of the world as being an oppressed class like the modern tea party flavor of libertarianism does. He doesn’t seem any less concerned with being a subject of a few elite in a new gilded age as being a subject of a tyrannical government. His [hardcore history](http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/cs) podcast is even better, but apolitical. I’m not sure if he’d consider himself a leftist libertarian, he tries strongly not to identify with any side of political tribalism, but if you’d consider a libertarian who was genuinely concerned about what was best for everyone rather than trying to return us to a new gilded age, you might be interested in listening to some of his stuff. I recommend it. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/6 "2013-04-16T06:24:31Z")
A lot of anarchists would be what you might called left libertarian. There’s also a wikipedia entry on [Left-libertarianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism). ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/7 "2013-04-16T07:53:40Z")
The website [Spiked](http://www.spiked-online.co.uk/) and its contributors might fit that bill. I actually agree with a lot of their views, if not all, so I might too. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/8 "2013-04-16T08:23:47Z")
> [@astro](#): > > True but popular perception of the Libertarian “brand” is becoming increasingly associated with the bullet points grude touched on. True libertarians are a tiny, tiny part of the electorate and if they are going to hitch a ride on a the (relative) 800 lb demographic Teaparty gorilla of middle aged and older white evangelicals in full racial panic they are going to come to be associated with the gorilla. Being libertarian in itself is fairly left on a lot of subjects to begin with. However it is currently the most sensible foundation to run a Constitution focused platform. Ron Paul discusses what everyone should be worrying about, libertarians not withstanding. Noam Chomsky and Libertarian socialism is so far the best answer. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/9 "2013-04-16T09:39:10Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > A lot of anarchists would be what you might called left libertarian. Only using the European definition of libertarianism. I don’t mean to play “No True Scotsman”, but the very foundational tenets of anarchism are antithetical to Americal libertarianism which is an inherently capitalist stance. I, for one, would never classify _my_ anarchism as libertarian, that word’s been too co-opted by capitalists. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That said there are various left-libertarians-I think Noam Chomsky considers himself one. Strictly speaking, he identifies as a [libertarian socialist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) with anarcho-syndicalist sympathies. While it has “libertarian” in the title, it isn’t what the Libertarian Party is about. When it comes to American-style libertarianism, he has said (from [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky%27s_political_views#Views_on_American_libertarianism)) > [@](#): > > Noam Chomsky has described libertarianism, as it is understood in the United states, as, “extreme advocation of total tyranny” and "the extreme opposite of what’s been called libertarian in every other part of the world since the Enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/10 "2013-04-16T14:00:26Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Yes the title is a contradiction in terms, but it seems like the libertarian party has been hijacked by the tea party crowd who is mostly worried that billionaires and corporations are marginalized and shouldn’t have to pay taxes and need more of a voice and that the USA isn’t as much of a christian theocracy as it should be. That’s news to me. I followed Gary Johnson’s campaign moderately closely and voted for him last year, and I don’t recall him saying that the USA should be a Christian theocracy or that billionaires and corporations are marginalized. But no doubt **grude** or someone else who supports his claims will soon post cites that establish that Johnson and his allies actually did say these things. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/11 "2013-04-16T14:31:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Only using the European definition of libertarianism. I don’t mean to play “No True Scotsman”, but the very foundational tenets of anarchism are antithetical to Americal libertarianism which is an inherently capitalist stance. I, for one, would never classify _my_ anarchism as libertarian, that word’s been too co-opted by capitalists. A fair point, well made. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/12 "2013-04-16T15:09:44Z")
Libertarianism doesn’t map exactly on the left/right axis, but rather the authoritarian/libertarian axis. Many libertarians, myself included, are as you describe: in favor if individual rights and smaller, less intrusive government. As noted, this is the Libertarian Party stance. Public advocates for these views include Penn Jillette and Adam Carolla, both atheists (again, like me), which I think informs their views: they aren’t interested in Christian values, they’re interested in freedom and responsible government. Bill Maher arguably fits into that mold as well, including the atheism (or at least agnosticism). ETA: I’ve always struggled to understand why libertarianism is equated to right-wing conservatism, when libertarians are not trying to return the country to some previous state of being; we’ve never been a libertarian country. Libertarians advocate many changes, not the status quo. How is that conservative? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/13 "2013-04-16T15:18:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > ETA: I’ve always struggled to understand why libertarianism is equated to right-wing conservatism, when libertarians are not trying to return the country to some previous state of being; we’ve never been a libertarian country. Libertarians advocate many changes, not the status quo. How is that conservative? In the current climate, libertarianism is a pseudo-intellectual veneer that people who are clearly and firmly right wing wrap themselves in to separate themselves from the failed neocon policy of the Bush years and also as a way to try to gain undue credibility by pretending not to be partisan. The modern tea party movement is clearly right wing and controlled by right wing interests, but the republican brand name is currently tainted, so it allows them a way to express their right wing views without being tied down to the negatives of the republican party, and they can pat themselves on the back about how they’re not republicans or democrats, they hate both parties blah blah and all that bullshit. Which isn’t to say that there aren’t genuine libertarians, but the public face of libertarianism is clearly under the firm manipulation of the republican party. Furthermore, a whole lot of libertarians - even genuine ones - seem far more concerned about empowering the powerful than any stance on personal freedoms and all that. Their interests line up with the plutocrats that run the republican party. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/14 "2013-04-16T15:32:36Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > In the current climate, libertarianism is a pseudo-intellectual veneer that people who are clearly and firmly right wing wrap themselves in to separate themselves from the failed neocon policy of the Bush years and also as a way to try to gain undue credibility by pretending not to be partisan. It’s much too old for that, and libertarian policy is utterly unlike neocon policy. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > The modern tea party movement is clearly right wing and controlled by right wing interests, but the republican brand name is currently tainted, so it allows them a way to express their right wing views without being tied down to the negatives of the republican party, and they can pat themselves on the back about how they’re not republicans or democrats, they hate both parties blah blah and all that bullshit. I dispute that the Tea Party is libertarian in any meaningful way, they are populist more than anything else. The rhetoric is about giving the nation back to the regular, honest (conservative, Republican) Joes, not equal individual rights for all. ETA: Which isn’t to say there are _no_ libertarians within the Tea Party coalition, just that the rhetoric and the candidates affiliated with them are not libertarian. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Which isn’t to say that there aren’t genuine libertarians, but the public face of libertarianism is clearly under the firm manipulation of the republican party. The Tea Party can’t be the public face of libertarianism, because it’s not a libertarian movement. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Furthermore, a whole lot of libertarians - even genuine ones - seem far more concerned about empowering the powerful than any stance on personal freedoms and all that. Their interests line up with the plutocrats that run the republican party. Empowering the powerful? In what way? ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/15 "2013-04-16T15:39:35Z")
If the political compass test is anything to go by, my entire team of 4. [http://www.politicalcompass.org/crowdchart.php?showform=&B=-5.9%2C-1.5&N=-7.5%2C-5.4&K=-6.9%2C-7.5&newname=A&newec=-4.25&newsoc=-3.74](http://www.politicalcompass.org/crowdchart.php?showform=&B=-5.9%2C-1.5&N=-7.5%2C-5.4&K=-6.9%2C-7.5&newname=A&newec=-4.25&newsoc=-3.74) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/16 "2013-04-16T16:23:08Z")
Political scientist Kenneth Janda, et al, authors of “Challenge of Democracy” introductory American Government textbook, categorize political ideologies along two dimensions rather than the usual one-dimensional “liberal vs. conservitive” line. He draws a graph showing four quadrants of ideology, with Libertarian being one of them. Lemme try to describe how this works (from memory; I took the class like 10 years ago). Governments are expected to provide these services (in broad generality): [ul] [li] Maintain order[/li][li] Preserve liberty[/li][li] Promote equality[/li][/ul] But these goals are somewhat contradictory, and require trade-offs. Lemme see if I can remember this right: Maintaining order and promoting equality don’t conflict. But maintaining order (with laws we have to follow) conflicts with preserving liberty (letting people do what they want). And promoting equality (anti-discrimination laws) also conflicts with preserving liberty (serving whichever customers you choose to serve). So, depending on one’s priorities, you can have arrangements: 1. (Highest priority): Maintaining order and promoting equality. 2. (Lower priority): Preserving liberty. These, Janda calls “Populists” (or, in his more recent editions, “Communitarians”) 3. (Highest priority): Preserving liberty. 4. (Lower priority): Maintaining order and promoting equality. These, Janda calls “Libertarians”. 5. (Highest priority): Maintaining order. 6. (Middle priority): Preserving liberty. 7. (Lowest priority): Promoting equality. These, Janda calls “Conservatives”. 8. (Highest priority): Promoting equality. 9. (Middle priority): Preserving liberty. 10. (Lowest priority): Maintaining order. These, Janda calls “Liberals”. I _think_ I’ve got that right. I’m having a hard time finding a graphic on-line of his two-dimensional illustration. But [here is an excerpt of a synopsis](http://college.cengage.com/polisci/janda/chall_dem/5e/students/chapters/ch1_synp.html): > [@Synopsis of Janda](#): > > Traditionally, liberal and conservatives have been linked to opposite poles on a single dimension: breadth of government activity. The familiar distinction holds that liberals favor a larger role for government and conservatives a smaller role. This distinction, however, fails to take into account conservatives’ greater emphasis on government’s role in maintaining social order. By introducing the **purpose** of government action‹whether to maintain order or to promote equality‹into a two-dimensional classification of ideological types, we produce a more satisfactory typology. **Liberals** favor government action to promote equality, whereas **conservatives** favor government action to promote order. **Libertarians** favor freedom and oppose government action to promote either equality or order. They stand in contrast to **communitarians** , who favor government actions for either purpose. (Emphases in original.) I think if you read that carefully enough, you can derive the same four-cases organization that I wrote above. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/17 "2013-04-16T16:45:09Z")
Here, I tried to draw a two-dimensional graph of what Janda is trying to get at. The vertical axis plots Order versus Liberty, while the horizontal axis plots Liberty versus Equality. I think I’ve got this right: ```auto -|------------------------------|------------------------------| O O | | | r r | | | d d | | | e e | | | r r | Conservatives | Populists | ∧ | | (or Communitarians) | v | | | | e | | | | r | | | | s | |------------------------------|------------------------------| u | | | | s | | | | ∨ | | | L L | | | i i | Libertarians | Liberals | b b | | | e e | | | r r | | | t t | | | y y | | | -|------------------------------|------------------------------| Liberty <------------------------------------------> Equality Liberty versus Equality ``` ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/18 "2013-04-16T17:12:41Z")
I think Matt Yglesias at [_Slate_](http://www.slate.com/authors.matthew_yglesias.html) qualifies as a “Liberaltarian”. Also, maybe, [these guys](http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/), though it’s a little difficult to tell, since the writing leans towards the scholarly in style (i.e. it’s a little dense). ---
**Author:** ![listedmia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@listedmia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/listedmia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/19 "2013-04-16T17:40:07Z")
None of us are pundits or anything, but I’d say that me and a large number of my friends and acquaintances fall into this category. If I took a poll, I’d mostly hear: Gun control is bad. Abortion is ok. Gay rights are ok. Drugs should be legalized or decriminalized. Small businesses should be regulated less (Unless, of course, you are talking about your boss) Fiscal conservatism is good, including cuts to military spending as well as some welfare programs. This varies a lot in importance between different people, though. If you happen to be in the military or on welfare, all bets are off. “Corporate welfare” is also bad. “Nanny state” type stuff like regulating soda sizes or cigarette smoking is universally bad. This is mostly urban, blue-collar people, early 20s-early 40s who are not particularly religious. There’s a widespread frustration with politicians because it’s hard to find someone who is for both gun rights AND reproductive rights, for instance. Because of this, a lot of people with these viewpoints don’t bother to vote, and we aren’t quite as vocal on the internet as the more “right-wing” libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816/20 "2013-04-16T18:07:49Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Are there libertarians more concerned with making it possible for you to have 3 husbands and 2 wives who all own guns and celebrate your wedding smoking cigars at a bar whose owner determines whether smoking is allowed. While you shoot up heroin and drink big gulp’s loaded with sugar and eat fois gras and drink raw milk, then go home to make some new porn videos to post to your website? You mean other than me? Quite a few really but in states without open primaries, we’ve tended to register with one of the major Parties. As the basic Democrat is looking more and more Republican, its a coin toss where. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-left-wing-libertarians/655816.md?page=2)