# Are there any "Libertarian" countries out there? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043 "2004-11-22T04:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/1 "2004-11-22T04:17:11Z")
If not, what country comes the closest to following the libertarian ideal? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/2 "2004-11-22T04:25:12Z")
Unlike communism, no government has self-identified as “libertarian”, or even suggested that the libertarian model was the goal. I’ve seen Milton Friedman (a small “l” libertarian) mention Hong Kong (before unification with China) as being the best example of a free market economy, but that’s relative to other economies. It’s unlcear how close to the libertarian ideal he considered HK to be. MF typically referred to the US as “about 40% socialist” since that represents the amont of GDP collected in taxes by federal, state, and local authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/3 "2004-11-22T04:28:59Z")
Well, even a completely libertarian state collects taxes in order to fund national defense and the judiciary, so you can’t just translate tax rates into % socialist. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/4 "2004-11-22T04:32:26Z")
If you will allow past tense, medieval Iceland, according to some people. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/5 "2004-11-22T04:34:16Z")
No, no more than there any ‘socialist’ countries - libertarianism, like socialism, is surely a utopian ideal - not a practical way to run a country. Maybe a smaller community, like a commune of rugged individualists, might work. But the nearest thing might be Hong Kong. Nominated ‘World’s Freest Economy’ every year by the Heritage Foundation and [others](http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-28-04.html) , and comes 18th out of 139 in [press freedom](http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/freedom_of_press.htm) . No tax on overseas income. No capital gains tax. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/6 "2004-11-22T04:38:37Z")
I have a friend who claims that his native Estonia is about as freemarket as it gets. I’ve been there twice and can confirm that everything is almost laughably cheap (a pint of beer is about 20 cents, for instance), and there’s no sales tax that I remember, but I’ve never really studied their government beyond that. This is an interesting question, I’ll do some research. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/7 "2004-11-22T05:29:53Z")
I’d say Beirut. No government to interfer- just various gangs and such. As close to Anarchy as any area has been. Hong Kong has a _tiny_ problem- the worlds largest land army a mile away ready to march in anytime they get “too free”. This tends to “harsh their buzz”. Their ‘freedoms’ are temporary and illusionary. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/8 "2004-11-22T05:41:49Z")
Hel\*-LO\*. Lebanon has been a functioning state again for several years now. Where have you been? There have been other failed states in the world, like Sierra Leone and Somalia, but somehow I doubt that’s what the Libertarians quite had in mind. (Whether it’s realistic to actually run a state on pure Libertarian ideology, now that’s a topic for Great Debates.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/9 "2004-11-22T19:20:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I’d say Beirut. No government to interfer- just various gangs and such. As close to Anarchy as any area has been. > > Hong Kong has a _tiny_ problem- the worlds largest land army a mile away ready to march in anytime they get “too free”. This tends to “harsh their buzz”. Their ‘freedoms’ are temporary and illusionary. This is GQ, not GD, so your political commentary is not only worthless, it’s actually detrimental to the goal of the forum. Libertarianism is NOT the same as “no government”. Educate yourself on the GQ subject being discussed before posting garbage, please. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/10 "2004-11-22T19:33:17Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well, even a completely libertarian state collects taxes in order to fund national defense and the judiciary, so you can’t just translate tax rates into % socialist. From what I’ve read, not all libertarians believe that government should be funded through taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/11 "2004-11-23T01:20:19Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If not, what country comes the closest to following the libertarian ideal? There is no way to measure this. There are some useful partial measures–for example, the aforementioned [Heritage Foundation](http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.html) ranks countries in terms of economic freedom, and [Freedom House](http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2003/tables.htm) ranks countries in terms of political rights and civil liberties. Obviously, these rankings aren’t gospel; they depend on a million subjective judgments as to how to score each country in each category (Quick! How much freedom of contract do you have?) and how to weight the categories relative to each other (Is protection from eminent domain seizure more important than a low tax rate?). Then, too, there are subjects which these indices don’t reach. It would be interesting to see how countries stack up in terms of personal freedom in areas such as sexual behavior and alcohol and drug use. Also, we might attempt to rank how much countries interfere in the affairs of other nations, which violates libertarian principles. I’m not aware of anyone who produces such indices, although I wouldn’t be surprised if someone does. If you had an index in every relevant area, you would then face further value judgments as to how to combine them into an overall measure. So there is no one “most libertarian” country, but some are more libertarian than others. Great Britain and her offspring (U.S, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland) tend to score near the top of any reasonable ranking. And yes, Estonia does well! All is relative–to reiterate **John Mace** ’s point, _no government_ has self-identified as libertarian or cited libertarianism as its model or goal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/12 "2004-11-23T02:00:20Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > This is GQ, not GD, so your political commentary is not only worthless, it’s actually detrimental to the goal of the forum. > > Libertarianism is NOT the same as “no government”. Educate yourself on the GQ subject being discussed before posting garbage, please. No, it’s not. But in effect- it is very close to Anarchy or rather “Warlord” rule. No one has yet cmae here and gave us - in detail- how a “Libertarian” government/nation would actually work. What little has been posted seems to show a closeness to a form of Anarchy. No two “Libertarians” agree. Well, they seem to agree that the Government will not “coerce’ it’s citizens, whatever the hell that means. I have seen some that disagree whether or not the “government” will even actively protect it’s citizens from 'coercion” by other citizens. There have never been any “Libertarian” nations- that is a correct answer to the OP. No nation or government has even been close. Yes, some democracies have been “more libertarian” than others. ALL use “coercion” on their Citizens. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/13 "2004-11-23T02:07:22Z")
This one would seem to be better suited to another forum, rather than GQ. Let’s try Great Debates. And, participants, let’s try to keep the discussion civil. **samclem** GQ moderator ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/14 "2004-11-23T02:08:13Z")
Oh, and now it IS GD. But- John- point me to a generally accepted expanation of exactly- in detail- how a “Libertarian” Government would work. Write one yourself if you like. Then show me how that differs from Beirut. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/15 "2004-11-23T02:35:16Z")
Do “free trade zones” count as microlibertopias? I’m not being facetious, honest. They’re areas (usually) in underdeveloped countries where taxation and other regulations on trade and industry are greatly relaxed or eliminated. Many functions of government are handled by corporations in such zones as well. It’s about the purest form of capitalism and small govt. I can think of in the world; only, as I said, it’s on a very micro scale and quite compartmentalized. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/16 "2004-11-23T02:59:50Z")
Good question. However, looks like there are some misunderstandings. Thought I’d start with a [definition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian): > [@](#): > > Libertarianism is a political philosophy which advocates individual rights and a limited government. Libertarians believe that individuals should be free to do anything they want, so long as they do not infringe upon what they believe to be the equal rights of others. In this respect they agree with many other modern political ideologies. The difference arises from the definition of “rights”. For libertarians, there are no material “positive rights” (such as to food, shelter, or health care), only “negative rights” (such as to not be assaulted, abused or robbed). Libertarians further believe that the only legitimate use of force, whether public or private, is to protect these rights. Libertarianism isn’t the same thing as Anarchy…in fact Libertarians feel pretty strongly about an effective courts system (well, one branch of them do anyway). They don’t believe in no government…only is limited government. However, the roots of Libertarianism IS in the earlier anarchy movements…and also, interestingly enough with the old style Liberal movements. > [@](#): > > All libertarians agree that government should be limited to what is strictly necessary, no more, no less. But there is no consensus among them about how much government is necessary. Hence, libertarians are further divided between the minarchists and the anarcho-capitalists, which are discussed at length in specific articles. Both minarchists and anarcho-capitalists differ in their beliefs from the anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-socialists and libertarian socialists, who are usually considered not to be libertarians at all (the feeling is mutual; anarcho-socialists and libertarian socialists claim that capitalism is incompatible with freedom, and thus libertarian/anarcho-capitalists cannot be considered libertarians at all). > > The minarchists believe that a “minimal” or a “night-watchman” state is necessary to guarantee property rights and civil liberties, and is to be used for that purpose only. For them, the proper functions of government might include the maintenance of the courts, the police, the military, and perhaps a few other vital functions (e.g., roads). While they are technically statists since they support the existence of a government, they would resent the connotations usually attached to this term. > > The anarcho-capitalists, believe that even in matters of justice and protection and particularly in such matters, action by competing private responsible individuals (freely organized in businesses, cooperatives, or organizations of their choice) is much better than action by governments. While they consider themselves to be anarchists, they insist in rejecting the connotations often attached to this term regarding support of a socialist ideal. > > Minarchists consider that they are realists, while anarcho-capitalists are utopian to believe that governments can be wholly done without. Anarcho-capitalists consider that they are realists, and that minarchists are utopian to believe that a state monopoly of violence can be contained within any reasonable limits. Critics of both these positions generally point to the historical record of democratic governments as evidence that democracy and popular rule have succeeded not only in containing government abuse of freedom, but have in fact transformed the state from a violent master of the people into their loyal and peaceful servant. > > The minarchist/anarcho-capitalist division is very friendly, and not the source of any deep enmity, despite the sometimes involved theoretic arguments. Libertarians feel much more strongly about their common defense of individual liberty, responsibility and property, than about their possible minarchist vs. anarchist differences. Since both minarchists and anarchists believe that existing governments are far, far too intrusive, the two factions seek change in almost exactly the same directions. > > Many libertarians don’t take a position with regard to this division, and don’t care about it. Indeed, many libertarians consider that governments exist and will exist in the foreseeable future, up to the end of their lives, so that their efforts are better spent fighting, containing and avoiding the action of governments than trying to figure out what life could or couldn’t be like without them. In recent years libertarianism has attracted many “fellow-travelers” (to borrow a phrase from the Communists) who care little about such theoretical issues and merely wish to reduce the size, corruption, and intrusiveness of government. I don’t think there has ever been a Libertarian government because the concept of a Free Market is a relatively new concept…and though Democracy has been around for a while, its only recently in history that its made something of a come back in the world. I don’t think Libertarianism is an idealistic or unattainable concept, though perhaps in a modified form. After all, Socialism and Communism have both had their shots…and THEY were both (supposedly) heavily modified to make them work in the real world. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/17 "2004-11-23T03:33:35Z")
> [@Hemlock](#): > > No, no more than there any ‘socialist’ countries - libertarianism, like socialism, is surely a utopian ideal - not a practical way to run a country. A quibble: It is not that libertarianism is not a _practical_ way; it is that libertarianism is not a _way_. Libertarianism defines the boundaries that should be placed on government but not a specific way of creating them. In the same way, the fact that no one has created a completely socialist society does not mean that it can’t be done, just that it hasn’t been done. > [@](#): > > Maybe a smaller community, like a commune of rugged individualists, might work. Similarly, libertarianism does not require that people live like individualists, it just does not require that they be forced not to. I have never understood why people equate libertarianism with “every man for himself”. Since most people don’t want to live that way, why would we assume that they would when they had the freedom to choose? I think the fundamental challege with creating a libertarian government is how to maintain the “boundaries”–who will watch the watchers? I think the US Founders were trying to create something very libertarian, which is why you have the “rock-paper-scissors” division of power among the branches and the specification of rights that are meant to be inviolate. Unfortunately, they backslid even before they were finished creating it–otherwise slavery would not have been permissable. I don’t think there is any doubt that they intended on limiting the government’s power and that this is why there are so many safety “checks”. In practice, the safety checks can be used to undermine the system. “Rights” can be re-defined. And the electorate can vote for things or people that use their power to violate the precepts. It becomes somewhat of a vicious cycle: We only continue to have all of our rights as long as those with power (presidents, voters, etc.) continue to insist that we keep them. Unfortunately, the world is not perfect or fair, and people cannot resist the urge to fix it using the most powerful tool available. To me, it is similar to wanting a hole for a basketball goal and dropping a bomb in the yard. You definitely create a hole, but the basketball goal still won’t stand up AND you’ve trashed the rest of the yard. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/18 "2004-11-23T03:47:41Z")
**Dr. Deth:** Libertarianism requires a strong rule of law, and equal treatment under the law. Beirut does not qualify. The closest state to the Libertarian ideal was probably the United States before the New Deal. In modern times, Hong Kong is certainly closer to that ideal than the U.S. currently is. Or at least Hong Kong was. I don’t know what’s going on there now. And you won’t find a warlord anywhere near any of those places. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/19 "2004-11-23T04:01:24Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The closest state to the Libertarian ideal was probably the United States before the New Deal. _chuckle_ Sorry, that’s just perfectly suiting and funny. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/20 "2004-11-23T04:57:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oh, and now it IS GD. > > But- John- point me to a generally accepted expanation of exactly- in detail- how a “Libertarian” Government would work. Write one yourself if you like. Then show me how that differs from Beirut. Umm, that’s not the way it works around here. You do your own research and show us how Beirut is an example of the libertarian principles. You made the assertion… you back it up. Good luck. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043.md?page=2)