# Are there any "Libertarian" countries out there? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043 "2004-11-22T04:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/21 "2004-11-23T05:30:55Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Dr. Deth:** Libertarianism requires a strong rule of law, and equal treatment under the law. Beirut does not qualify. > > The closest state to the Libertarian ideal was probably the United States before the New Deal. In modern times, Hong Kong is certainly closer to that ideal than the U.S. currently is. Or at least Hong Kong was. I don’t know what’s going on there now. > > And you won’t find a warlord anywhere near any of those places. Well, not according to xtisme’s post “The anarcho-capitalists, believe that even in matters of justice and protection and particularly in such matters, action by competing private responsible individuals (freely organized in businesses, cooperatives, or organizations of their choice) is much better than action by governments. While they consider themselves to be anarchists, they insist in rejecting the connotations often attached to this term regarding support of a socialist ideal.” And while you won’t find 'warlords" in Hong Kong, there are plenty of Strongmen (Tongs, Yakuza, etc) to fill that niche. I’d say that the rival gangs/warlords/factions in Beirut comes rather close to this faction of Libertarianism. You “pick” which group you want to “protect” you- (and in fact, you can pick none, if you are daring). These groups protect you, collect "taxes’ and provide services. The only “government” is the one you have chosen. John- you know I’d love to - but then you’d just say “that doesn’t meet MY definition of a Libertarian government”. :dubious: And since no two Libs agree- really, before you say I am wrong- you have to put up some sort of definition for me to plink at. Just saying “you’re wrong” doesn’t qualify as a cite either, I’ll point out. And - here indeed is a cite (thanks xtisme) that does say that Libertarianism (or one faction, anyway) is _very_ close to a type of anarchism. Where’s yours? But we have had this debate before- right here on the SDMB. We have asked the Libertarians to show us how- in detail- a “Libertarian” government/nation would actually function- and they consistently refuse to, or evade the question. Well, other than “it’d be free of coercion” :rolleyes: - which is meaningless to me, and certainly hardly the kind of detail we need. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/22 "2004-11-23T05:45:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > John- you know I’d love to - but then you’d just say “that doesn’t meet MY definition of a Libertarian government”. :dubious: And since no two Libs agree- really, before you say I am wrong- you have to put up some sort of definition for me to plink at. Just saying “you’re wrong” doesn’t qualify as a cite either, I’ll point out. And - here indeed is a cite (thanks xtisme) that does say that Libertarianism (or one faction, anyway) is _very_ close to a type of anarchism. > > Where’s yours? I’m not a Libertarian (ie, a member of that party), but if you want to pick a standard, why not take the [Libs](http://www.lp.org/) at their word and use their [party platform](http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/platform_all.html) or section on [issues and policy](http://www.lp.org/issues/) as a guide? \*\*XT \*\*is wrong when he says libertarianism is “very close” to anarchism. I’ll let him come back and defend that statement if he chooses to. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/23 "2004-11-23T05:51:19Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Dr. Deth:** Libertarianism requires a strong rule of law, and equal treatment under the law. Beirut does not qualify. > > The closest state to the Libertarian ideal was probably the United States before the New Deal. In modern times, Hong Kong is certainly closer to that ideal than the U.S. currently is. Or at least Hong Kong was. I don’t know what’s going on there now. > > And you won’t find a warlord anywhere near any of those places. Just to keep everyone honest, there are significant differences between “libertaria” and all of the places you named, **Sam Stone**. Having said that, I agree those places are closer than Beruit. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/24 "2004-11-23T06:04:12Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m not a Libertarian (ie, a member of that party), but if you want to pick a standard, why not take the [Libs](http://www.lp.org/) at their word and use their [party platform](http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/platform_all.html) or section on [issues and policy](http://www.lp.org/issues/) as a guide? > > \*\*XT \*\*is wrong when he says libertarianism is “very close” to anarchism. I’ll let him come back and defend that statement if he chooses to. John- none- not one of those links have anything to do with a “Libertaria” and how such a nation would actually run. Those are full of ideas of how we can make the USofA a _more_ libertarian place. With hard functional phrases such as “Solutions: Libertarian policies will promote a society where people are free to make and learn from their own decisions.”= meaningless blather. :rolleyes: John, John, John. We aren’t talking here about making the USA _more_ libertarian. I have no problem with “less government” as an ideal we can work towards. That’s fine. (That’s why I am a small “l” libertarian). What we are talking about here is “Libertaria”- a nation that works entirely by Libertarian principles. Which is a Utopian ideal that no two Libertarians agree on. That’s why I think Large “L” Libertarians to be blatherskites. And John- **xtisme** didn’t say that- thus he can’t be wrong. Did you read his post? He linked & quoted a Wikipedia entry. But I have no doubt that no Libertarian agrees with it 100%- just like no two agree with each other 100%. Please feel free to email Wikipedia. But it’s a cite- and better than yours. (Did you read your own cites?) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/25 "2004-11-23T06:27:49Z")
Of course, if you tried to create Republica, or Democratica, you’d find that there’s very little agreements among Republicans and Democrats as to what they would be. It’s not really a criticism of Libertarianism that Libertarians are not in perfect lock-step with each other. The question is, what kind of state could be created as a compromise that they could all agree on? ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/26 "2004-11-23T06:29:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What we are talking about here is “Libertaria”- a nation that works entirely by Libertarian principles. Which is a Utopian ideal that no two Libertarians agree on. The problem is that, to some extent, this is akin to asking us to describe to you exactly what a “man” is like. Then, I describe to you a blonde man, and someone else describes a brunette man, and you say that we can’t agree on what a man is or that we are dissembling when we say that we can’t “define” a man in a way that dictates hair color. In fact, being a “man” does not require the presence of hair at all. Or you pose hypotheticals about what this “man” would do in different situations. And the answer is that he may choose one of numerous options–and none of them would necessarily make him more or less of a man. At least speaking for myself, I try to answer the questions as best I can, but libertaria–almost by definition–does not dictate the details of how things are achieved; it just limits the tools that may be used. -VM ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/27 "2004-11-23T06:34:46Z")
Dr Deth: I’m actually not interested in debating with you whether or not Beruit is a good example of a libertarian system, or whether or not Libertarianism is a form of anarchy. Neither is correct and you haven’t offered one shred of evidence to back up either claim. Wikipedia can sometimes be a good source of info, but it’s an open source site, and this particular article is a good example of why you can’t always use it as a reference. It variously equates libertarianism with anarchy, socialism, and classical 19th century liberalism. If, as you claim, Beruit is a good example of libertarianism, why don’t you find us a cite, any cite, where a self-described libertarian held that society or government up as an example of libertarian ideals. And of course you are not going to get all Libertarians to agree on all subjects. Is there any political party or philosophy for which this is true? The fact is, as I said in my first post, no government has ever self identified as being Libertarian or Libertarian inspired. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/28 "2004-11-23T14:17:18Z")
Still wondering if “Free Trade Zones” fit any kind of libertarian ideal… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/29 "2004-11-23T15:17:50Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Still wondering if “Free Trade Zones” fit any kind of libertarian ideal… The free flow of goods and services is one aspect of a “liibertarian ideal”, but only one. To the extent that the free trade zone retained the unliberalized social laws of the parent country, then it doesn’t fit. And the term “free trade zone” is a bit misleading. For example, does the “free trade zone” have minimum wage laws? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/30 "2004-11-23T15:20:27Z")
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I think minimum wage laws may vary from place to place. In some of the zones, there appears to be very little in the way of regulation of industry of any kind; in others, I’m sure certain basic restrictions must apply. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/31 "2004-11-23T15:57:49Z")
Actually, most Libertarians wouldn’t concern themselves with the laws on the ‘other’ side of the free trade zone. Free trade is good, period. It matters not whether your trading partner has no minimum wage or environmental protections. People who want to trade on an ‘even playing field’ are “fair traders”, not “free traders”. In fact, demanding concessions for your ‘free’ trade is anathema to libertarians. They maintain that individuals have the right to sell their goods to whoever they choose to sell them to, for whatever price both parties are willing to agree to. Free trade is one of the obvious places where Libertarian thought is mainstream. Most economists recognize the value of free trade, and the folly of demanding that your trading partner be a clone of your country before trading with it. The whole point to comparative advantage is that we are NOT the same. Other countries have cheaper labor - it’s their comparative advantage. It’s silly not to take advantage of it (and free trade is also the best way to make sure that in the long run the playing field levels out). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/32 "2004-11-23T16:41:40Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I think minimum wage laws may vary from place to place. In some of the zones, there appears to be very little in the way of regulation of industry of any kind; in others, I’m sure certain basic restrictions must apply. To be honest, I’m not familiar with the details of any particular Free Trade Zone. I suspect that the only feature that defines them is the ability to get goods in and out without paying any tarrifs. There is a lot more to free trade than just that one aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/33 "2004-11-23T17:19:38Z")
Well and truly stated, Sam. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/34 "2004-11-23T19:22:10Z")
Read this today… a good example of no-government at all helping an industry ! [Telecoms thriving in lawless Somalia](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4020259.stm) > [@](#): > > A host of mobile phone masts testifies to the telecommunications revolution which has taken place despite the absence of any functioning national government since 1991… > > It takes just three days for a landline to be installed - compared with waiting-lists of many years in neighbouring Kenya, where there is a stable, democratic government. > > And once installed, local calls are free for a monthly fee of just $10. > > International calls cost 50 US cents a minute, while surfing the web is charged at 50 US cents an hour - “the cheapest rate in Africa” according to the manager of one internet cafe ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/35 "2004-11-23T19:25:14Z")
Switzerland gets mentioned as libertarian-minded (well, as libertarian as you can get in social-welfare-oriented Europe), due mainly to gun rights and pliable financial regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/36 "2004-11-23T19:43:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > To be honest, I’m not familiar with the details of any particular Free Trade Zone. I suspect that the only feature that defines them is the ability to get goods in and out without paying any tarrifs. There is a lot more to free trade than just that one aspect. It’s difficult to get specifics, because every country is different, and most of the info. available online is sketchy, unless you want to pay some consulting firm to show you the ropes. Suffice to say, from my cursory research on the web, some FTZ’s are just what you say: Tariff- and duty-free areas carved out of a country that exist “within the nation, but outside of customs”. However, some offer considerable tax advantages, such as temporary exemption, followed by permanent reduction. Organized labor appears to find them threatening, as apparently some labor laws and restrictions do not apply in some FTZ’s. From the wiki article, it would appear some administrative functions are also handled by corporations, reducing the size of govt. I guess that’s why at least some of them must rather “libertarian” in structure, at least as it applies to unfettered industry and reduced beaurocracy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/37 "2004-11-23T21:34:48Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > XT is wrong when he says libertarianism is “very close” to anarchism. I’ll let him come back and defend that statement if he chooses to. Just for the record, all I said was that Libertarianism had its ROOTS in the older Anarchy type movements, but that they split off (obviously or they would still be Anarchists). I think there is enough historical evidence to make this statement with some level of confidence (even in the cite I provided it basically talked about this). However, I don’t think the big L Libertarianism today is an anarchist style philosophy…just a minimalist government philosophy. Certainly the brand of small l libertarianism I subscribe too isn’t. BTW, I also think Beruit is a bad example of a Libertarian style system…I’d need to see some kind of evidence or at least theories of how the two are similar. I subscribe to the belief by some in this thread that Hong Kong is about as close as it gets to the ideal. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/38 "2004-11-24T14:23:14Z")
> [@Hemlock](#): > > No, no more than there any ‘socialist’ countries - libertarianism, like socialism, is surely a utopian ideal - not a practical way to run a country. Maybe a smaller community, like a commune of rugged individualists, might work. > > But the nearest thing might be Hong Kong. Nominated ‘World’s Freest Economy’ every year by the Heritage Foundation and [others](http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-28-04.html) , and comes 18th out of 139 in [press freedom](http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/freedom_of_press.htm) . > > No tax on overseas income. No capital gains tax. If Hong Kong is number one, what does that make Somalia? [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4020259.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4020259.stm) ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/39 "2004-11-24T19:05:28Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Dr. Deth:** Libertarianism requires a strong rule of law, and equal treatment under the law. Beirut does not qualify. Cite for that? In my experience, Libertarians seem adamantly opposed to any kind of legislation that attempts to control people’s actions. I wouldn’t characterize that as a “strong rule of law”. How about Iraq? The government is barely functioning at all over there. Must be Libertarian utopia. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043/40 "2004-11-24T19:20:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Cite for that? In my experience, Libertarians seem adamantly opposed to any kind of legislation that attempts to control people’s actions. I wouldn’t characterize that as a “strong rule of law”. The basic Libertarian credo: One should not initiate violence against another. One major strain of Libertarianism believes that the government has the following legitimate roles: 1. To maintain armies to defend the nation against foreign aggression. 2. To maintain a police force to protect citizens against aggression by other citizens. ‘Aggression’ includes things like fraud, extortion, threats of violence, etc. 3. To maintain courts of law to settle disputes between citizens. You apparently don’t even have a basic understanding of what Libertarianism is if you think that it’s anarchy. > [@](#): > > How about Iraq? The government is barely functioning at all over there. Must be Libertarian utopia. Strawman, and a particularly tedious one. Opponents of Libertarianism do this all the time - find the worst lawless hellhole they can find, point to it, and say, “there’s what your precious libertarianism is!” Except it’s not. Iraq has nothing whatsoever to do with libertarianism - not even if there was no violence. Not even if it’s a smoothly functioning democracy. The only reason you want to associate it with libertarianism is to smear both at the same time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-libertarian-countries-out-there/276043.md?page=3)