Touché, Sam. And agreed.
Very interesting way of looking at it; I hadn’t thought of it like that. Are there any threads around discussing this?
Well, this is very anectdotal but I recently had a professor that talked exhaustively about the corruption in our current healthcare system. She talked a lot about companies like Glaxco Smithkline and how they make these commercials whining about how much money they spend on R&D, in an attempt to justify their high cost, but it turns out that they spend more on those commercials than they do on R&D.
Also, one of my best friends is a (I don’t know know how to say this? “high end”? he’s almost done) med student and rants often about how disgusted he is that doctors are encouraged and even pressured by pharmaceutical companies to exploit their patients for profit.
And then there’s the whole health insurance issue. My grandpa recently died a lot sooner than he had to because if he made a little bit less money the government would’ve paid for his medical bills and if he made a little bit more money he could’ve paid on his own.
I’m not super well versed in the subject, and I don’t have any answers, but I think questions need to be asked and the current state of the field needs to change.
I didn’t imply that you were. I was trying to highlight the fallacy of somehow thinking that libertarianism was “less” of a vlid political outlook than conservatism or liberalism due to the fact that it’s hard to pin a precise definition on what being a libertarian actually means. The same can be said for all political viewpoints.
If this wasn’t what you were trying to imply, then I apologise.
I think we might be talking past each other on this issue. I can’t understand why you would think that laws could not be enforced under Libertarianism. I thought your point was that there would be no money to fund a police force, so I gave you one example of how a government could raise revenue that didn’t invlove taxation, if you were to insist that Libertarians oppose all taxes.
I am not a Libertarian (ie, a member of the party), but I don’t think it is a stated plank of that party’s platform to oppose ALL forms of taxation. Yes, **some **Libs do oppose all forms of taxation, but that neither proves that taxation is against the Libertarian platform, not does it prove that Libertarians cound not fund a police force and a judicial system. I can’t find anything on the Lib’s web site that calls for a ban on all taxes. Can you? They consistently talk about LOWER taxes, but not once do they mention NO taxes.
I don’t know of any libertarians who think that laws will enforce themselves or that enforcement is free. The fact that we don’t want the government blowing money on corporate welfare for McDonald’s doesn’t mean that we are against the government enforcing a libertarian-oriented system of justice–it is the desire for hard limits on government that make us libertarians, not a desire to eliminate it.
Nonetheless, since we are libertarians and believers in markets, we prefer approaches that try to match up the spender with the need to spend. Taxation is not out of the question in order to have justice–after all, it is supposed to protect everyone–but I would say that there are better ways to match up the cost. It seems to me that if everyone honored everyone else’s rights, there would be no need to police or punish. Therefore, I would say that the people who violate others’ rights should bear the cost as much as possible–if it weren’t for these assholes, we could do without cops of any kind. Based on this, I would prefer funding the system as much as possible with fines and such levied against offenders. If that’s not enough money, then taxes are not out of the question, but I would still rather come up with some ideas that were a little less arbitrary.
-VM
Most libertarians I know would say that if the government really were limited to the things they believe it should do - military, police, courts, maybe even maintenance of some public infrastructure like roads and parks, that it wouldn’t need an income tax to fund these things, but that rather the revenue could be raised with user fees and consumption taxes. If an income tax is necessary, Libertarians would propose that the tax be as low as possible and evenly applied, rather than using the tax system as a progressive means to redistribute income.
dream sequence
I woke up this morning, got out of bed, stretched and opened my blinds… good weather today. My neighbors house is almost visible through the hedges, and my back yard is badly in need of a trim. Not that big of a deal, as it’s my property. No laws telling me what I can or can’t do with my yard, and no “Homeowners Association” for me to deal with. Well, there is one, but I’m not a member and they can’t compel me to comply with the rules they choose to have themselves live under.
I showered and had some breakfast, while reading the paper. I could have just gone online for the news, as just about everyone here in Libertaria has inexpensive high speed access… no governmental controls has allowed a plethora of ISP’s to come about. SBC is still here, but they’ve had to cut prices pretty drastically to compete.
I checked my bank balance… I use Wells Fargo, since they keep gold at local branches. Libertaria is on the gold standard, of course, and I like the look of the Wells Fargo money. Most banks use their own money, although a few of them band together for the purposes of monetary distribution. The only way the government gets inovolved is to investigate the banks and make sure they are being honest with their customers and to insure that the banks (most of them) that claim a gold reserve actually have it. If not, the bank gets closed and fined until they do… usually this closes the bank for good, but another one springs up as soon as they get enough capital together.
Lots of money in banking. We get a lot of international trade, due to the strength of the currency the government uses, also backed by real gold reserves.
I had some time before work, so I stripped and cleaned my guns. I was shooting recently, at the gun range my friends own together. No paperwork on guns needed, it’s a hobby. You don’t need licenses to own stamps, do you? Most of the citizenry is armed, but nobody really makes a big deal about it either way. I saw a fellow last week carrying around a rapier in his coat. He wasn’t attacking anyone, so no harm no foul. Anyone trying to use a weapon to commit violence is in danger of getting shot back… and then going to jail for a VERY long time.
I got dresseed and headed to work. My car is electric… I’m not an environmentalist per se, but it turned out to be cheaper in the long run. There’s no laws requiring smogging or anything, but in the long run it’s cheaper to get a newer car. Most libertarians tend to be a bit fiscally conservative… Of course, I got stuck behind a guy that’s the opposite of me, running his classic Camaro with no exhaust pipe, but he’s a rarity. If a car is causing to much of a public nuisance, a call can be made and a governmental arbiter will come out and determine if it is impinging on the greater freedoms of the society as a whole (usually not… really hard to prove, but it does happen) and if so, the man can be asked to sell it, or restrict his driving of it to less crowded roadways. He can appeal it. Once. You can appeal any governmental decision, usually just the once though.
The fellow in his smog-mobile turned off, and I had clear sailing. The roads are in good condition, as a rule. I passed a sign on the freeway informing me that I was entering a free trade zone… that’s where I worked, and in fact most folks worked. Any city of decent size had one, usually downtown to accomodate large businesses, though they are a benefit to everyone.
I passed a SuperWalMart… I didn’t like shopping there, but I found myself doing it more often. It is convenient, although the quality of goods is dropping off. They aren’t really adapting well to the Libertarian work ethic, and as such they aren’t doing very well… if they collapse, or fail to do well, they will leave and someone else will come along. They always do… look what happened when they stopped subsidizing the airlines. Most of them collapsed, and within months a swarm of smaller, better companies popped up. Competition is good!
I pull into my parking spot and head into work.
** Dream Sequence**
Not a great example, but I’m going on the fly. Someone with more skill and knowledge can probably build on what I’ve surmissed here.
Some of this is not bad, but I think you’ve still got a bit of a reflex to assume that “Libertaria” would require things that libertarians don’t believe in, or not require things that they do. Not wanting to create too much of a hijack, I’ll just point out a few quibbles:
There may well be a homeowners’ association that CAN compel you to comply, if you live in that neighborhood. What they cannot compel you to do is buy a house in that neighborhood.
In fact, when I purchased my house, I had to sign a homeowners’ association agreement as part of the sale. It was not an option to buy the house and not sign. But I was not compelled to buy the house.
This may well be true, but there is no reason to assume it. If the government is enforcing the laws well, then very few people would feel the need to be armed for self defense, so probably most of the weapons would owned by hobbyists like yourself.
Smog is an example of the general class of issues usually referred to as the “tragedy of the commons”. Different libertarians imagine different ways to minimize or eliminate these “tragedies”. I don’t know of any libertarians who believe that it is okay for you mix things into the air that harm me when I breathe it (key loophole: unless you figure out a way to get my permission).
Don’t know of too many libertarians who would be too fond of this government-agency-based approach. Also, a libertarian government could care less about the “freedoms of society as a whole”–only individual freedom.
Are you saying you just entered Libertaria? Where were you before?
As long as you stick to the libertarian framework, your “dream” sequence is probably no better or worse than anyone else’s. In some ways, that is the point: Libertarians do not wish for government to dictate in advance “how life will be” or “how things will go”. The interactions of people trying to do the things they want to–and the compromises they reach with each other–will utlimately dictate the results.
-VM
I pretty much agree with Smartass’s analysis. I don’t think you have a good understanding of libertarianism, Tristan, if you think there would be no laws against pollution or if you think there would need to be “Free Trade Zones” in a libertarian state.
You got me. Honestly, the most research I have done on “Big L” Libertarianism has been in connection with threads from this board and a brief stint exploring Anarcho-Capitalism.
I’ve started to do more research, but it’s difficult to do at work and I still lack Net at home.
I agree… there would be no government arbiter on Smog. And I assumed that there would be places where there would be Homeowners associations, but my hypothetical “me” chose not to live in one.
The concept of a “Free Trade Zone” downtown was based on the idea of having a section of town that was totally free of taxation of ANY sort, and the vision of Gigantic Multi-National companies having large buildings…
I’ll do more research and make a second attempt… wish me luck.
Mostly just lurking these days. One thing about your dream sequence that struck me as odd, Tristan (besides the things Sam already pointed out) was bringing back a gold standard to tie directly to the currency. THis is also a theme of many libertarians and runs through the books of Ayn Rand as well. The problem I have with it is it seems very limiting on the growth of an economy…after all, there is only so much gold available.
I don’t really know if this is a key plank of big L Libertarianism or not…and if it is, exactly WHY they would think this is such a great idea. Perhaps someone more versed in big L Libertarianism will come in an explain it.
-XT
You are describing what is commonly known as a “tax”.
Wow, the Libertarians can change the weather. I am impressed.
I look over to see my neighbor’s rusty ‘58 Buick up on blocks in his front yard, and his broken washing machine on the front porch. It lowers my and all my other neighbors’ property values, but we can’t do anything about it. The uncleared dry brush around his house constitutes a severe fire hazard to the entire block, but we have no legal recourse to rectify the situation.
I say this knowing full well that Homeowners Associations are not government entities, but rather voluntary cooperatives entered into by private citizens.
Just then, the phone rings for the 10th time that morning - another long-distance company wanting me to switch to their service. The mailbox is already packed with such offers.
I reflect on how giving power to the government is ipso facto bad…that is, until I think of something I want them to do for me.
As I get ready to leave the house, I don my body armor. I run serpentine out to my armored car and quickly jump in the driver’s seat. We discovered the hard way that when you let anyone buy a gun without any controls, that criminals tend to buy them too.
Scant consolation when the victim is already injured or dead.
I say as I choke on the acrid smoke coming from the tailpipe in front of me. On days when smog levels are really high, I don my gas mask and curse the fact that we disbanded the EPA.
I like being free of regulations…that is, until someone else, who is also free of regulations, does something that I don’t like. Then I use the regulations to force him to comply with the law that I just said we don’t have.
Living in Libertopia is confusing.
I wonder to myself how a society that has scrapped zoning laws can have zones. Then I remember that it’s not good to think too much in Libertopia.
No, I am talking about the uses to which money raised could be put. A tax is one way to raise money. There are others. John Mace proposed one for you.
We use taxes in this country ( and most others, admitedly) for this purpose. That in and of itself does not mean that taxes are the one and only way to fund such activities. It may not even mean that taxes are the best way.
To some extent, you answered your own question: There is only so much gold available. The main purpose of any currency is to create a “liquid” standard of exchange so we are not continually trying to recalculate how many seashells is about equal to one potato. Because gold is rare and valuable, it has been used as a currency in many cultures. Not too long ago, all currencies were more like titles. Rather than lug around a bunch of heavy-ass gold, people carried around pieces of paper that said they owned gold somewhere.
The trend to remove the backing is fairly recent and enables governments to fiddle with the money supply–you can produce more dollars much more easily than you can produce more gold. The dropping of the standard gives the government the ability to “print money”, and most libertarians don’t like having governments do this because it can create unnecessary inflation. If it is used as a strategy to pay gov’t debt, it has the effect of a tax in that it devalues everyone’s money–including whoever the money is owed to.
Some libertarians are pretty passionate about this. Speaking for myself, although I agree with them, it’s not the part of libertarian beliefs that inspires passion, and I can think of a lot of issues that seem more urgent.
-VM
It is clear that something about libertarianism is offensive to you. Why not just say so and leave it at that? This collection of straw men is nothing more than the kind of political mudslinging that has caused so many Americans to lose all respect for the Republicrats. I assume this is primarily for the benefit of those who don’t understand libertarianism, to encourage them not to learn more. Hijacking this thread in order to intentionally mischaracterize libertarian positions is disrespectful to everyone here and to the purpose of the forum.
If libertarianism is as bad as you are clearly trying to make it sound, I would think that it wouldn’t be too difficult for you to find negative things to say without having to make them up. I guess that wouln’t be as fun as just being snide, though.
-VM
Good luck with your research–I hope you find a lot to like.
I just can’t leave the thing about “Gigantic Multi-National companies” alone. I think a lot of the “evils” that are associated with Big Business in this country are a result of the imaginary person known as the corporation. I really cannot imagine a “libertaria” that included a company of this sort. Libertarianism is about personal responsibility. Corporations are a tool for people to make unlimited profits with limited risk–and this dodging of responsibility is not libertarian at all.
It’s no wonder so many corporations are so completely amoral. Since the investors don’t feel responsible for the company’s actions, there’s little incentive for them to be anything else.
-VM
Big L Libertarianism does not specify that there should be a gold standard for the currency. It only insists on the repeal of “legal tender” laws. And in such a setting, currencies based on gold or other precious metals would probably tend to be the most popular.
Why is that? Consider that the dollar has lost 93% of its value since we left the gold standard in 1914. In the same time period, gold has lost approximately 0% of its value. If the requirement to accept dollars was gone, which currency would you rather put into the bank?
A gold-backed currency does not limit the growth of an economy, anymore than turning on the printing press at the US Mint increases the nation’s wealth. You can argue that if the government does not have the power to print money at will, it would be mostly limited in spending by what it could raise in taxes. Thus, it probably couldn’t afford to invade other countries at will, for example. On the other hand, it probably couldn’t afford to invade other countries at will. 
He proposed that a fee be paid in order to fund the court system. You can call it whatever you like; it’s still a tax. If you like a “contract” tax better than an income tax, that’s your prerogative, but it’s still a tax.
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IMO you guys haven’t come up with a very good alternative proposal yet.
Not at all. I find Libertarianism ineffectual, but not offensive.
Huh?