# Are there any limits on building a large, sophisticated submarine for private use? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 11, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177 "2005-12-11T23:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/1 "2005-12-11T23:11:18Z")
I was reading this Fark linked article about billionaires buying little 2 man subs to play around with, [Magnates pay to go under](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17533427%5E29677,00.html) and wondered if hypothetical Joe Billionaire decided to be more ambitious and wants to devote his considerable fortune to building a large (say 150 meter) fast, deep diving submarine to explore the depths with for scientific and recreational purposes. Assume the speed and depth capability specs on this machine would be comparable to the best subs the military has, with the obvious exception of lacking firepower and related ordinance, and being non-nuclear. GE’s Electric Boat Division is short on submarine jobs lately so they could use the work and are willing to design and craft it for him. Would he likely be stopped at some point by the government or military in building this craft out of national security concerns (however construed) or not? What’s to stop him from doing this? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/2 "2005-12-11T23:30:46Z")
The first thing that comes to my mind is that the government might have some concern that he would be a hazard to surface craft. I remember a few years ago when a US Navy submarine surfaced quickly and killed the crew of a Japanese fishing boat. I don’t know what would prevent him from having the craft registered in Liberia, or some other country, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/3 "2005-12-11T23:33:46Z")
A minor quibble. Electric Boat is a division of General Dynamics, not General Electric. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/4 "2005-12-11T23:59:59Z")
There are private subs operating in US waters already. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Hawaii has one or two. IIRC, they carry passengers for hire, and as such, are routinely inspected and certificated by the Coast Guard. If a large private sub were to be used exclusively for recreational purposes, then the CG will still take an interest in it, if only for purely safety reasons. 😉 Any vessel of unusual design or usage is sure to draw the attention of the CG, and the owner could probably expect a safety boarding sooner, rather than later in his voyage. The CG will probably visit during construction if they get wind of it early. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anything that would prevent someone from doing it in the first place, but it’s a sure bet that the CG Captain of the Port (COTP) for the area in which this sub would be operating will want to know everything about the boat, where it intends to operate and why. The COTP has a lot of latitude in this regard, as a submerged boat obviously poses a potential hazard to other vessels in the area. I work for the local COTP, and I’ll ask around tomorrow what, if anything, would prevent someone from doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/5 "2005-12-12T00:29:02Z")
[This site](http://www.ussubs.com/submarines/phoenix_1000.php3) has one for sale. At 65 meters in length and 1500 tons, it’s not quite the size specified in the OP. OTOH, the bargain price ($78 million) might make it attractive. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/6 "2005-12-12T01:01:23Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > [This site](http://www.ussubs.com/submarines/phoenix_1000.php3) has one for sale. At 65 meters in length and 1500 tons, it’s not quite the size specified in the OP. OTOH, the bargain price ($78 million) might make it attractive. Thanks for the link! I would never have imagined someone already had a a full design ready for one. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/7 "2005-12-12T01:09:49Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Thanks for the link! I would never have imagined someone already had a a full design ready for one. You could probably buy some used russian nukes to arm it with for even less. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/8 "2005-12-12T03:12:54Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > You could probably buy some used russian nukes to arm it with for even less. But that would be [illegal](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00002122----000-.html). ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/9 "2005-12-12T04:16:48Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > [This site](http://www.ussubs.com/submarines/phoenix_1000.php3) has one for sale. At 65 meters in length and 1500 tons, it’s not quite the size specified in the OP. OTOH, the bargain price ($78 million) might make it attractive. That, my friend, is rad. I’m going to start saving. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/10 "2005-12-12T05:23:03Z")
As a hypothetical, I’m not sure your average billionaire is qualified to own and operate a submarine’s nuclear-prolusion system, nor understand the technical issues regarding the proper disposal of radioactive waste. Except Donald Trump, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/11 "2005-12-12T05:39:44Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > As a hypothetical, I’m not sure your average billionaire is qualified to own and operate a submarine’s nuclear-prolusion system, nor understand the technical issues regarding the proper disposal of radioactive waste. > > Except Donald Trump, of course. Oh, so _that’s_ what his toupee is made of. ---
**Author:** ![EvilGhandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@EvilGhandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilGhandi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/12 "2005-12-12T07:00:13Z")
Only 78 mil? I’ll take one. Im a little short though any dopers want to spot me 77.9999 mil? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/13 "2005-12-12T07:19:11Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > But that would be [illegal](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00002122----000-.html). Well, how about sharks with frickin’ laser beams on their heads? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/14 "2005-12-12T07:35:36Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Well, how about sharks with frickin’ laser beams on their heads? [You’d probably have to get a permit for that](http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=383100d8fd8775ff35e9c79bd462effe&rgn=div5&view=text&node=50:8.0.1.1.3&idno=50). ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/15 "2005-12-12T07:40:59Z")
And don’t forget the [warning labels and emission indicators](http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=4ae8bfac0ebf6e0adf8e9126d4901db7&rgn=div5&view=text&node=21:8.0.1.3.44&idno=21)! ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/16 "2005-12-12T08:24:13Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Well, how about sharks with frickin’ laser beams on their heads? Well, I guessed this thread would go in this direction. A personal submarine is coming dangerously close to supervillain territory. Especially when one contemplates the possibility of Donald Trump owning one. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/17 "2005-12-12T08:47:59Z")
Wasn’t there a Russian diesel-electric submarine up for sale, a couple of years back? I don’t remember what class it was, or if anyone bought it, or if it was still seaworthy at all. (After all this time, the superglue might have dissolved.) Anyway, since [at least semi-privately operated nuclear vessels](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah) aren’t _completely_ unknown,\* if you have your heart set on having a nuke boat, you could try funding [one of these?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Cargo_Vessel) Of course, just paying the Russians to let you do something crazy under their flag is kinda like the world’s cheat code, isn’t it? Just takes the _challange_ out of figuring these things out. 😃 \*Then again, neither are steam-powered aircraft. And how many of _them_ do you see flying? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/18 "2005-12-12T09:06:01Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > But that would be [illegal](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00002122----000-.html). Yeah but I’ve got my own island in Polynesia and I’m not owning the weapons in the US. I thought the corrent thinking is that if you don’t do it in the US, no matter what it is, it isn’t illegal. And I didn’t sign the non-proliferation treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/19 "2005-12-12T14:37:25Z")
My guess is that if the US government were in any way concerned about your submarine, they’d likely either/both: (a) tie you up in costly legal proceedings until you auction it off in frustration or (b) give the US Navy carte blanche to spook, “buzz” or otherwise hassle you and your fellow civilian submariners. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177/20 "2005-12-12T14:58:38Z")
Recall that Captain Nemo did his in secret, contracting the sub-assemblies out to different companies in different countries, and assembling it all at a private location away from any major powers. Of course, with so many people involved and such a big project, you’re bound to attract the attention of intelligence agencies from all over the world, especially in this day of satellite surveillance. Even if you say that it’s purely for your own private pleasure use, somebody’s going to think that you’re really building a mercenary force for contracting out to small countries. Heck, that was the point in one of C,S. Forester’s Horatio Hornblower stories (although with a large surface ship, of course, not a submersible). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-limits-on-building-a-large-sophisticated-submarine-for-private-use/335177.md?page=2)