# Are there any looted historical artifacts that SHOULDN'T be returned? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 28, 2019, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108 "2019-11-28T06:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/41 "2019-11-29T21:20:55Z")
And thinking about it, that is a totally backwards argument. You don’t have to prove import/export documents aren’t necessarily fake for legitimacy, you have to be able to prove they’re real. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/42 "2019-11-29T21:36:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And thinking about it, that is a totally backwards argument. You don’t have to prove import/export documents aren’t necessarily fake for legitimacy, you have to be able to prove they’re real. Sure, when examined by a Official at the time of Export and import, not 200 years after. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/43 "2019-11-29T23:02:44Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > When I worked at a museum I created an exhibit on war trophies from WWII. Among those trophies was a big Nazi flag signed by nearly ten Arkansas soldiers, some of their hometowns were included, and one of them was a comedian who also wrote, “Hi Hiter!” The exhibit included German marks, helmets, insignia patches from uniforms, a few weapons, etc., etc. as well as some placards describing the items and offering an interpretation of the history of war trophies. Pretty much all our WWII artifacts of German or Japanese origin were taken by American soldiers, sailors, and marines. We even had a katana though I’m reasonably sure it wasn’t the priceless one mentioned in the article. (Maybe I better double check.) > > Even if we could trace those items to specific German or Japanese soldiers we would never return them. To the victor go the spoils. There’s no big push among museum professionals to return these kinds of artifacts to their “rightful” owners. Now things like the Elgin Marbles are a bit more controversial. But war trophies like katanas? Nope. \ I have an issue 1917 [Imperial German] P[.08](https://i.imgur.com/dsnlimj.jpg), complete, holster had some guy’s name scrawled inside it, and a Sauer & Sohn first gen[38H](https://i.imgur.com/C49EdLq.jpg), also NDSAP German issue, some guy’s name scrawled in the holster. I also have the documentation issued to Dad allowing him to deposit them in the armory on the Queen Mary when his unit shipped back on the way to the US to be redeployed to the Pacific. _he_ got them off a heap of weapons confiscated and dumped in a pile for the troops to pick over for souvenirs. The German troops surrendered to he and a driver when they were tasked with taking a truck and trailer loaded with trade items around to the local farms to barter for fresh food. A single officer came out of a barn, hands up and asked if they could surrender to my dad, so he, his battle buddy, a truck of food, a trailer of weapons and a little huddle of cold, hungry and dispirited Germans trundled back to camp. \ I have a safe display case that I have for the 2 handguns and the paperwork. I have stopped using the 38h as my daily carry because mrAru got me something different. I am looking for a nice display case for the issue M1 of my dad’s =) aruBro and I grew up with various memorabilia as ‘toys’ - I think the SS helmet is still in the basement. My ex-bf, a Seal was startled to see a few defanged mortar rounds, hand grenades and the like as desk tchatchkes when we visited my Dad’s office =) [I grew up in a house with assorted weapons, and we were trained for safety at a very young age that they were not toys, and I have very fond memories of hunting, I still have my original rifle and shotgun from growing up =)] ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/44 "2019-11-30T14:02:15Z")
When I visited museums in Berlin, I was struck by the number of signs that said “We used to have this item, but the Russians took it in 1945. We also used to have this other item, but the Russians took that too, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/45 "2019-11-30T14:21:32Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > This is going to sound hopelessly paternalistic, but in some countries, political unrest, war or terrorism has led to the destruction or looting of some national museums and artifacts. So perhaps it’s a good thing that some artifacts are in places like London, Berlin or Paris. Plus it allows us to visit one museum and see art and archaeology from around the world. > [@UDS](#): > > Possibly it is a good thing. > > On the other hand, you don’t get to own something just because you would take better care of it than the present owner. We can accept that the looting of artefacts has in some instances contributed to their preservation and we might be glad of that outcome. This doesn’t change the fact that they were looted, and it doesn’t refute moral or legal arguments for their return. Are we talking about what the law is, or about what it should be? Every nation and location is subject to political unrest, war, terrorism, and natural catastrophe. Just not at the same time. I honestly think it’s best for the cultural heritage of mankind that “all the stuff documenting this culture/ruler/etc.” not be kept in the same place or in the same political entity. Yes, that means I think it would be good if some of the US heritage was kept outside the US, and I think some of those multi-cultural museums of looted artifacts from around the world are an excellent thing. That’s my opinion on what the law ought to be. I don’t know what it is right now. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/46 "2019-11-30T14:42:00Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > On the other hand, you don’t get to own something just because you would take better care of it than the present owner. The principle applies to neglected or abused children and animals, though. At least when done through government channels. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/47 "2019-11-30T15:11:59Z")
This reminds me of the actions of Mussolini during WW2. Italy invaded and occupied Ethiopia in 1936-1941 and looted many items including a [24 metre, 4th century Obelisk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk_of_Axum) from the [ancient capital of the Kingdom of Aksum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum) and re-erected it in Rome. It wasn’t returned [until 2005](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/ethiopia/1488259/Ethiopia-rejoices-as-Italy-returns-plundered-obelisk.html) after it had been struck and damaged by lighting. It’s been mentioned above but European museums (in particular the British Museum Collection) are all but complete with priceless artifacts (and human remains) looted during colonial adventurings around the globe. So much so it is impossible to showcase them and they stay boxed up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/48 "2019-11-30T15:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **DrDeth** : > > There’s no evidence at all it was faked. In order to have evidence that the firman was faked, we’d have to have that document. Do we? No. We have a copy, in another language. We’d have to have _what_ document? The claim is that it doesn’t exist. You’re saying that we can’t have evidence that it doesn’t exist, unless we have it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/49 "2019-11-30T18:26:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > We’d have to have _what_ document? The claim is that it doesn’t exist. You’re saying that we can’t have evidence that it doesn’t exist, unless we have it? We dont have the original. We have a copy, in italian. There are claims that the documents were faked, but since we dont have the original to look at, we dont know. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/50 "2019-11-30T19:11:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > On the other hand, I think spoils of colonialism should be repatriated. Stuff like the Elgin Marbles, Benin Bronzes and Bust of Nefertiti. Including if they were taken in colonial wars. > > Yes, I get that means the British Museum then really becomes the _British_ Museum rather than the Stuff Britain Took Museum. Suck it up, Sahib. It’s not that easy though. For one thing, a lot of colonial stuff was taken from areas that are today in conflict (I’m thinking for example of Assyrian statues and entire temple fronts that were lifted off - which while shitty also preserved them from ISIS’ loot-based profit model and/or their novel & thought-provoking C4 and rotary-saw based conservation initiatives) ; for another thing whether we like it or not the French & British looting the everliving fuck out of their colonies is \*also \*a part of History and in that regards the British museum acts as both a conservation effort for the artifacts and a constant, living reminder of the ills of European imperialism. As \*\*elgin \*\*pointed out, those artifacts have also become entwined with the artistic history of Europe as well, just as their looting has influenced local histories & art all over the place. I also think **Dewey** ’s argument has some merit - it’s good for Europeans to be able to see cultural artifacts from around the world, if only to undervalue the persistent idea that no History happened outside Europe. I think it could be cool to “pay reparations” on our looting by handing over some \*European \*artifacts or similar value and/or eras so that people from around the world enjoy the very same benefit. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/51 "2019-12-01T12:29:55Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > for another thing whether we like it or not the French & British looting the everliving fuck out of their colonies is \*also \*a part of History and in that regards the British museum acts as both a conservation effort for the artifacts and a constant, living reminder of the ills of European imperialism. As \*\*elgin \*\*pointed out, those artifacts have also become entwined with the artistic history of Europe as well, just as their looting has influenced local histories & art all over the place. Count me as wholly unsympathetic to such an argument. Let’s say the nation of Wakanda invades the United Kingdom, overthrows the government, kills off the political and noble classes, and subjugates the population for a good 150 years. After which the transitional government of the British Isles demand that Wakanda returns all the priceless artifacts they looted from historical sites (from Stonehenge to Hadrian’s Wall to the Magna Carta to the corpses of the entire ruling families/priests/etcs) which have been put on display. Now imagine if the Wakandan response was: looting your national treasures, robbing your gravesites, and overthrowing your government was a historic part of OUR recent history that should never be forgotten. We will learn to respect you and your history by keeping these dear ancient items and generating revenue from them for ourselves. It’s a plain farce. ---
**Author:** ![SGNY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@SGNY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SGNY)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/52 "2019-12-01T13:45:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s not that easy though. For one thing, a lot of colonial stuff was taken from areas that are today in conflict (I’m thinking for example of Assyrian statues and entire temple fronts that were lifted off - which while shitty also preserved them from ISIS’ loot-based profit model and/or their novel & thought-provoking C4 and rotary-saw based conservation initiatives) From the “it’s not that easy” school should you be able to use that argument when the conflict is probably occurring because you helped to destabilise the current despicable Government . ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/53 "2019-12-01T14:03:42Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Count me as wholly unsympathetic to such an argument. Let’s say the nation of Wakanda invades the United Kingdom, overthrows the government, kills off the political and noble classes, and subjugates the population for a good 150 years. > > After which the transitional government of the British Isles demand that Wakanda returns all the priceless artifacts they looted from historical sites (from Stonehenge to Hadrian’s Wall to the Magna Carta to the corpses of the entire ruling families/priests/etcs) which have been put on display. > > Now imagine if the Wakandan response was: looting your national treasures, robbing your gravesites, and overthrowing your government was a historic part of OUR recent history that should never be forgotten. We will learn to respect you and your history by keeping these dear ancient items and generating revenue from them for ourselves. > > It’s a plain farce. Yes, but I’m going to argue that Wakenda should keep some of it, because I believe in diversifying risks. And if the Wakendans sacked the UK, someone else might in the next couple hundred years. Does Wakenda display the corpses of its own kings? If yes, then maybe they can keep one or two. Otherwise, that’s insulting and they should be repatriated and buried, burned, or interred as is the custom of the people who named them. (I’d draw the line at “do they know this person’s name”. I don’t think every ancient body that’s dug up should be returned to whoever happens to live there now. And I note that my culture DOES display human bodies of our own for scientific reasons. But specific known, named individuals should be returned to the people who gave them their names, imo.) And Wakenda should return the singular Magna Carta, if there’s only the one copy. (If it’s something there were a lot of copies of, like Martin Luther’s list, then I’d say they should keep one.) They should return part of Hadrian’s wall if they took all of it. That seems implausible. They probably just took a patch. They should keep that. The UK can re-build that patch if they care. Walls need repairs over time anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/54 "2019-12-03T03:03:56Z")
Conquerors take stuff. If they didn’t want to take stuff, they’d not go a-conquering. The conquered lose stuff to conquerors unless they’ve hidden it pretty well. That’s humanity past, present, and future. If you don’t want to lose stuff (like family, property, your life, etc) then don’t be in a conqueror’s path. I previously suggested that “artifact returns” likely reflect shifting power balances between the parties. I doubt “moral qualms” are involved; _quid-pro-quo_s make more sense. We’ll return your stuff if you give us drilling rights, legal preferences, or sexual favors. UK might return the Elgin Marbles if enough MPs receive oral sex. Other jurisdictions might capitulate just to end lawsuits. I await your slings and arrows. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/55 "2019-12-03T18:30:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And they were never really in any danger. How do we know this? Because the Greeks still have the half he \*didn’t \*loot. I don’t have a position on what should be done with the Marbles, but the fact that the others are still present isn’t proof that they weren’t in danger. Also, slightly tongue-in-cheek counterpoint: Clearly they were in danger of being stolen and smuggled out of the country, because someone did that. At least he did it in a way that’s known and public, and they didn’t disappear or get lost or destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/56 "2019-12-03T18:44:30Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Conquerors take stuff. If they didn’t want to take stuff, they’d not go a-conquering. The conquered lose stuff to conquerors unless they’ve hidden it pretty well. That’s humanity past, present, and future. If you don’t want to lose stuff (like family, property, your life, etc) then don’t be in a conqueror’s path. > > I previously suggested that “artifact returns” likely reflect shifting power balances between the parties. I doubt “moral qualms” are involved; _quid-pro-quo_s make more sense. We’ll return your stuff if you give us drilling rights, legal preferences, or sexual favors. UK might return the Elgin Marbles if enough MPs receive oral sex. Other jurisdictions might capitulate just to end lawsuits. > > I await your slings and arrows. Well that’s an obvious “is”, what’s your opinion the “should be” ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/57 "2019-12-03T18:53:41Z")
> [@SGNY](#): > > From the “it’s not that easy” school should you be able to use that argument when the conflict is probably occurring because you helped to destabilise the current despicable Government . Fair point. I’ll admit to defaulting to a narrow utilitarian standpoint of “the point is _it’s shit now_” regardless of guilt or blame or the causality that led to it being shit. Certainly I don’t dismiss or handwave away centuries of ethnocentric imperialism in the goings on of today. But that’s neither here nor there when addressing stuff at the margins. I’m not putting these words in your mouth in any way, rest assured, but you can see how “the British oughta give back the Babylonian statues for ISIS to destroy because they’re in part responsible for ISIS existing in the first place” would be a silly proposition, yeah ? > [@orcenio](#): > > Now imagine if the Wakandan response was: looting your national treasures, robbing your gravesites, and overthrowing your government was a historic part of OUR recent history that should never be forgotten. We will learn to respect you and your history by keeping these dear ancient items and generating revenue from them for ourselves. > > It’s a plain farce. Shades of Tintin here, for some reason. Dredges up the first pages of “The 7 crystal balls” from my ravaged memory. As well as academic arguments re: “where’s the line between archaeology and grave robbing ?”. I’m not saying it’s not contentious or problematic, and I think your last argument has a lot of merit - the be-looted cultures should absolutely be given a fair piece of the tourist pie even in my (very likely ethnocentric) read. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/58 "2019-12-03T19:09:00Z")
> [@Mallard](#): > > I agree with that statement. If you lose, you forfeit…especially if it’s a war your side started. I say it’s totally a matter of conscience. Imagine the uproar if a German family wanted their Luger & Nazi flag back. I believe it is illegal to have a nazi flag in Germany now. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/59 "2019-12-03T19:21:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe it is illegal to have a nazi flag in Germany now. Nope. In fact, even the restriction on displaying Nazi symbols outside of very narrow educational/memorial contexts was lifted a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108/60 "2019-12-03T19:29:28Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Nope. In fact, even the restriction on displaying Nazi symbols outside of very narrow educational/memorial contexts was lifted a few years ago. You amaze me, Sir! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-looted-historical-artifacts-that-shouldnt-be-returned/844108.md?page=4)