# Are there any major works of art still missing from the Nazi's pillaging? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203 "2006-03-20T21:49:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/1 "2006-03-20T21:49:38Z")
I was reading this semi-related [article](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060319/ENT05/603190313/1043/ENT) and was wondering if there were any major works of art that have not reappeared since the fall of the Nazi empire. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/2 "2006-03-20T22:06:24Z")
Does the [Amber Room](http://www.amberroom.org/history.htm) count? ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/3 "2006-03-21T01:03:09Z")
Raphael’s [_Portrait of a Young Man_](http://www.nga.gov/images/decor/dparaph_fs.shtm) from the Czartoryski is the obvious example. > [@Max Torque](#): > > Does the [Amber Room](http://www.amberroom.org/history.htm) count? It’s clearly currently missing. What all the arguments have been about is whether it’s merely lost or has suffered destruction at some point. Catherine Scott-Clark and Adrian Levy rather convincingly suggest in their recent _The Amber Room_ (Atlantic, 2004) that it was in Königsberg Castle when the city fell to the Soviets in 1945 and hence was technically “recovered”, but was destroyed in an accidental fire a few days later. Between Russian reluctance to clear up the details and peoples’ wish that it might somehow have survived the hazards of war and its aftermath, arguments will however surely continue. Probably indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/4 "2006-03-21T01:06:54Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > What all the arguments have been about is whether it’s merely lost or has suffered destruction at some point. To carefully amend my own post, the same can technically be said about the Raphael. Both it and the Amber Room have indeed been missing since 1945. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/5 "2006-03-21T13:16:13Z")
The greatest collection never to have resurfaced is arguably the group of paintings from the Rothschilds’ collection in Paris that Goring picked out and then gave to Hitler. They included works by Fragonard, Gainsborough, Goya, Frans Hals, Rembrandt, Rubens, Watteau and, most notable of all, Vermeer’s _Astronomer_ (not the one in the Louvre). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/6 "2006-03-21T14:29:49Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > I was reading this semi-related [article](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060319/ENT05/603190313/1043/ENT) and was wondering if there were any major works of art that have not reappeared since the fall of the Nazi empire. From your link– > [@](#): > > The restitution of Nazi-looted art is a hot-button issue. The numbers are elusive, but 600,000 works appear to have been seized by the Nazis **with 10,000 to 100,000 still missing** , according to one scholar’s congressional testimony. Attention has increased in the last decade as museums and governments became more sensitized, sometimes reluctantly. Bolding by me. Question answered? ---
**Author:** ![Jacob\_Silj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Jacob\_Silj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jacob_Silj)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/7 "2006-03-21T15:02:58Z")
I apologize for going slightly off topic for a moment, but this reminded of the Simpsons episode and was wondering if anyone knows if the works shown were actual examples of missing paintings? ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/8 "2006-03-22T00:21:56Z")
> [@APB](#): > > The greatest collection never to have resurfaced is arguably the group of paintings from the Rothschilds’ collection in Paris that Goring picked out and then gave to Hitler. They included … Vermeer’s _Astronomer_ (not the one in the Louvre). Are you sure you’re not inventing a spurious Vermeer here? After all, [the Louvre _Astronomer_](http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/v/vermeer/03d/28astro.html) was owned by the Paris Rothchilds, seized by the ERR, selected from their haul in the Jeu de Paume by Göring, given by him to Hitler (as part of the booty listed in attachment 10 to [the Plaut report](http://www.lootedart.com/International/International%20Bodies%20and%20Reports/Orcid_GSF_38002_4627314815.asp)) and then recovered and returned to the Rothschilds after the war. Lynn Nicholas (_The Rape of Europa_, Macmillan, 1994, p414) quotes an anecdote about one of the family servants recognising it amongst repatriated loot. It then only entered the Louvre’s collection in 1983. Nicholas (p409) also implies that the major Rothschild works from Paris, as given to Hitler, were amongst the first to be returned to France in 1945; I suspect most of these had turned up at Alt Aussee. Of course, this was still only the tip of the iceberg, even as far as the Rothschilds were concerned. So much stuff was taken from them in France (and Austria) that I doubt that any more than a small minority of even just their stolen artworks has been accounted for since. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/9 "2006-03-22T03:12:18Z")
I could have sworn I read somewhere that pieces from the Amber Room have been recovered-only a few small ones, but still, that’s something. I believe they did recreated a fascimile at the Catherine Palace in Pushkin for display purposes. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/10 "2006-03-22T03:56:26Z")
IIRC, I read somewhere that Bob Jones University has a lovely art collection acquired in pre-war Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/11 "2006-03-22T05:17:09Z")
From the link posted by **Max Torque** , on the history of amber– > [@](#): > > Commercial dealers and Kings soon placed the searching for and selling of Amber under a law. The people living near the shores were obligated to collect and to deliver Amber and the reeves had to watch over that. The requested quantities have been so enormous, that women, children and elderly had to go to the beach daily under all weather conditions in order to fullfill the goal. If someone did not comply, bad punishment was the rule. Selling Amber has been punishable by death. Later on, German knights took over the Amber monopoly, leasing it to the so-called “Amber-Knights-Order”, which forced the people on the coast to collect. Fishermen were offered salt in exchange and since they needed much salt, they collected as much Amber as they could and collecting it was a part of their daily life. Reading the beginning of the article, I was just thinking of buying amber jewerly… but knowing its medieval history of people being enslaved by corvée to gather it gives me pause. I would like some idea of the provenance of the current supply of amber that I would find in a jewelry store, and working conditions for the workers. I want me some Fair Trade jewelry to go with my coffee. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/12 "2006-03-22T09:53:13Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Are you sure you’re not inventing a spurious Vermeer here? After all, [the Louvre _Astronomer_](http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/v/vermeer/03d/28astro.html) was owned by the Paris Rothchilds, seized by the ERR, selected from their haul in the Jeu de Paume by Göring, given by him to Hitler (as part of the booty listed in attachment 10 to [the Plaut report](http://www.lootedart.com/International/International%20Bodies%20and%20Reports/Orcid_GSF_38002_4627314815.asp)) and then recovered and returned to the Rothschilds after the war. Lynn Nicholas (_The Rape of Europa_, Macmillan, 1994, p414) quotes an anecdote about one of the family servants recognising it amongst repatriated loot. It then only entered the Louvre’s collection in 1983. > > Nicholas (p409) also implies that the major Rothschild works from Paris, as given to Hitler, were amongst the first to be returned to France in 1945; I suspect most of these had turned up at Alt Aussee. > Of course, this was still only the tip of the iceberg, even as far as the Rothschilds were concerned. So much stuff was taken from them in France (and Austria) that I doubt that any more than a small minority of even just their stolen artworks has been accounted for since. [The CLAE - which is what I had checked - need to update their own database.](http://www.lootedart.com/search/artwork.asp?artworkID=7692) ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/13 "2006-03-22T20:07:08Z")
> [@APB](#): > > [The CLAE - which is what I had checked - need to update their own database.](http://www.lootedart.com/search/artwork.asp?artworkID=7692) Aa-ha! I would have been surprised to learn of another Vermeer with that subject and I’d guessed that somewhere recording the loss, but overlooking the recovery, was likely to be the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/14 "2006-03-22T20:17:12Z")
Do you mean Adolf Hitler? He’s the person who comes to mind when you refer to “the Nazi”. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/15 "2006-03-22T20:35:52Z")
I know it is an aside, but what happened to all the faked paintings that the famous dutch forger (hans van Meeghren) sold to the nazis? Van Meeghren specialized in faking vermeers-and his stuff was good enough to fool Dr. Abraham Bredius, the foremost Dutch art expert of the time. Are any of the faked pictures still in existence? or were they detroyed? ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/16 "2006-03-23T00:59:23Z")
Actually only one of the van Meegeren’s wound up in Nazi hands, but it was the fact that Göring had bought [_The Woman Taken In Adultery_](http://www.tnunn.f2s.com/adultery.htm) that led to him being investigated and unmasked. Like much else, it was recovered from the mines at Alt Aussee. Who it belonged to after van Meegeren was convicted was unclear, given the various illegalities involved on behalf of different parties, but a Dutch court decided that it was the property of the crown, i.e. the state. As a result, it’s now owned - along with at least one other of the fakes, [_Lady and Gentleman at a Spinet_](http://www.tnunn.f2s.com/spinet.htm) - by the Rijksdienst Beeldende Kunst (the Netherlandish Office for Fine Arts) in The Hague. Various others are in private hands, while [_The Supper at Emmaus_](http://www.tnunn.f2s.com/emmaus.htm) is in the Boymans Museum in Rotterdam. I don’t think any have been destroyed (at least not after leaving van Meegeren’s possession). To my knowledge, none are routinely on public display, though some have been shown in specific exhibitions about forgeries. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/17 "2006-03-23T01:13:47Z")
I seem to recall watching one of those old, _Unsolved Mysteries_ type show on the History Channel (it was hosted by Leonard Nimoy) about Nazi loot hidden somewhere near a lake in the Bavarian Alps. I don’t know if it was actual money, or artworks. ---
**Author:** ![First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/First_Amongst_Daves)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/18 "2006-03-23T14:10:50Z")
The excellent Robert Harris novel _Fatherland_ has a painting in a Swiss bank vault, but I can’t recall which one it is, other than in a postscript its described as missing from the war. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/19 "2006-03-23T15:26:44Z")
> [@First Amongst Daves](#): > > The excellent Robert Harris novel _Fatherland_ has a painting in a Swiss bank vault, but I can’t recall which one it is, other than in a postscript its described as missing from the war. From the Author’s Note of said novel: > [@](#): > > Leonardo da Vinci’s portait of Cecilia Gallerani was recovered from Germany at the end of the war and returned to Poland. (This is the only mention of a painting in the postscript, so I assume it’s what you were referring to.) ---
**Author:** ![First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/First_Amongst_Daves)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-major-works-of-art-still-missing-from-the-nazis-pillaging/349203/20 "2006-03-24T13:26:35Z")
It was - many thanks, I no longer have my copy.