# Are there any more name prefixes than O', Mc, or Van? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 12, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755 "2003-05-12T18:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/41 "2003-05-13T13:55:35Z")
In Czech, the -ova ending is added to all women’s surnames. Martina Navratilova’s father and brothers are named Navratil. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/42 "2003-05-13T14:25:17Z")
Curly Chick: Not that common. See the url I posted above for the official Icelandic explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/43 "2003-05-13T14:39:17Z")
Anyone remember the feminine equivalent of “Mc/Mac”? ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/44 "2003-05-13T15:30:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scarlett67 \* > \*\*How about “ter” and “ten”? (Dutch? Can’t think of examples, but I know I’ve seen them.) \*\* yep, Dutch. Ten Cate is one example, Ter Willigen is another And then you also have : De (De Smet = Smith) Van (Van Akker) one person stated the D’ Is originally French, de as in “from” and was usually an estate or region. That’s why the “petits d’s” as they’re called, are usually landed gentry. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/45 "2003-05-13T15:38:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pravnik \* > \*\*In Czech, the -ova ending is added to all women’s surnames. Martina Navratilova’s father and brothers are named Navratil. \*\* what’s it in Russian? Is it a three fold name, like in China? example: Ivan Pietrovitsj Ilna his son: Wladimir Ivanovitsj Ilna daughter: Olga Ivanova Ilna Chinese it’s the family name (Yip) the generation name, which differs between girls and boys (i.e. Tien which means heaven), and then the first name (i.e. Fa which means present I think.) I know two Chinese girls, their names are Yip Tienm Fa and Yip Tien Fong. First translates as Heavenly Present Yip, second reads as Heavenely Flower Yip (People hwo know Mandarin, please correct me if I’m wrong). In Belgium, people are taught to write their last name before their first name . In any other country, apart from China, it’s the other way around. In China that’s because like it’s stressed that you are part of the family, first and foremost, after that you belong to the generation (generations didn’t use to mix in China. ), and after that you belong to yourself. In the west, that’s unthinkable. An era of individualism prevails at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/46 "2003-05-13T15:42:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*I find that interesting, in that it would appear (to my untutored eye) that -uez and -wicz are cognates. If true, I wonder how they showed up at diagonally opposite ends of Europe. \*\* Slavic languages and Romance languages are still subsets of the Indo-European family, though. I think you’re correct about the -uez/-wicz (-vich) connection. I’m also fairly certain that Slavic -ski is cognate with Germanic -ish/-ische … and perhaps also with Latin -icus and Modern Romance -ique/-ico. A good way to tie this all together would be to compare these possible cognates with words or suffixes with similar meanings in the more far-flung Indo-European languages, like Farsi, Marathi, Hindi, or Bengali. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/47 "2003-05-13T16:03:38Z")
graph with pedigree site is in Dutch, though… [http://www.ned.univie.ac.at/publicaties/taalgeschiedenis/nl/germaans.htm](http://www.ned.univie.ac.at/publicaties/taalgeschiedenis/nl/germaans.htm) ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/48 "2003-05-13T16:11:57Z")
I teach adult ESL in a city with a high Montagnard population. The Montagnards are a diverse group of Vietnamese who dont speak Vietnamese as a native language (or at least not at home) but one of several languages like Kaho, Jarai, or Rade which are wholely unrelated to Vietnamese. Many of them have prefixes on their first names (many dont have last names, but some do). H is for women like Hbruih or Hcham. K is for men like Kser or Knem. Sometimes they introduce themselves with the prefix, sometimes they dont. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/49 "2003-05-13T16:23:22Z")
“In any other country, apart from China, it’s the other way around.” Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Ever been to Korea? Probably influenced by China, but certainly a different country. And I can’t believe I don’t remember what the convention is in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/50 "2003-05-13T17:58:45Z")
The convention in [ul][li]Japan is Family name then personal name.[/li][li]The convention in Vietnam is Family name–middle name–personal name. When a Vietnamese person “switches” his name to “Western style,” (s)he’ll change it to Personal name–middle name–Family name; interestingly enough, the middle name stays the middle name.[/li][li]Korea is Family name then personal name (may be one or more syllables for the personal name).[/ul][/li] p.s. I’ve lived in both Korea and Japan, and have studied Vietnamese formally. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/51 "2003-05-13T20:15:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by don willard \* > 4) Is the Gell in Gell’Mann spelled like I > just spelled it? I’ve seen this Gell before, and > I’m not sure it belongs on this list of name prenomens or if it is something only in Semitic > languages where you put apostrophes after a lot > of things for some unknown reason. I’m no expert on Jewish surnames in general, but the particular case of Gell-Mann is famous in physics folklore for being, well, unusual. His family originated from Galicia in the Austrian-Hungarian Empire and the original known spelling was Gellmann. It’s been suggested that this was a Russian version of the German Hellmann, meaning a man with blond hair. By the time of Murray’s parents’ wedding in the US, the name had mutated to Gellman, but shortly thereafter it became Gell-Mann. Gell-Mann has always consistently spelt it this way. Certain eminent Jewish physicists have over the years ribbed him over both the spelling and his pronounciation of it as an affection. The whole issue is discussed at some length in Chapter 1, “A Hyphenated American”, of the George Johnson biography of him, _Strange Beauty_. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/52 "2003-05-13T20:26:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curly chick \* > \*\*Nic is only used when daddy’s name starts with a vowel, otherwise it is Ni, and the father’s name portion takes an h > > If Maire were the daughter of Seoseamh, then her full handle would be Maire Ni Sheoseamh.\*\* No. _Nic_ is the feminine of _Mac_, _Ní_ is the feminine of _Ó_. Simple as that. > [@](#): > > There is also a feminine prefix for “wife of” - bean, but I cannot remember how it affects the husbands portion of the name. _Bean_ isn’t really a prefix in the true sense of the term. It’s the Irish word for “woman” or “wife”, and followed by a prefix and surname takes on the meaning of “Mrs”. The prefixes for a married woman are _Uí_ (feminine of _Ó_) or _Mhic_ (feminine of _Mac_). Áine Nic Mhathúna = Anne McMahon (unmarried) Áine Mhic Mhathúna = Anne McMahon (married) Bean Mhic Mhathúna = Mrs McMahon ---
**Author:** ![Nocuous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e79b87/32.png) [@Nocuous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocuous)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/53 "2003-05-13T22:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\ ***Nocuous** : > > “-son is not that usual in Norway, while -sen is very common.” > > Is there a Landsmal/Bokmal correlation with -sen/-son in Norway reflecting the Danish influence or is -sen native to Norway as well? I’d assume it didn’t flow from Norway to Denmark. \*\* This is probably quite off-topic, but I’ll try to answer anyway. 🙂 Norway was ruled as a part of Denmark until 1814, when Sweden was granted Norway after the Napoleon wars. In the danish period the written language in Norway was mostly danish, since the elite got their education in Denmark and all official documents was written in danish. (Including the church-books that registered all newborn.) The emergence of family names that replaced the previous use of patronymic names occured during a periode when the language was mostly danish, and therfore it followed the danish pattern (using “-sen”). During the union with Sweden a desire for a written language that was closer to the norwegian spoken language arose. Two different routes were followed to achieve this. “Landsmaal” was created by starting from scratch using the language spoken by farmers and fishers in villages all over Norway (mostly gathered and put into system by a man called Ivar Aasen), while “Riksmaal” was created by modifying danish to reflect the way norwegian was spoken in the major cities. In 1885 the Norwegian Storting (Parliament) decided that both forms should be recognised as official languages. In 1929 they decided to change the names to “Nynorsk” and “Bokmål” (literally “New Norwegian” and “Book Language”). In “bokmål” son is written as “sønn” while in “nynorsk” it is written as “son”. If the change from patronymic names had happened after 1885 it would likely have been large regional differences, where the spelling depended on the local preference for “Nynorsk” and “Bokmål”. To show how usual names ending with “-sen” as apposed to “-sson” I have checked the ten most usual last names in Norway ([Source](http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/navn_en/)) : ```auto 1 Hansen 59833 vs Hansson 704 2 Olsen 55322 vs Olsson 1120 3 Johansen 54995 vs Johansson 1979 4 Larsen 41125 vs Larsson three or less 5 Andersen 39944 vs Andersson three or less 6 Nilsen 37838 vs Nilsson 1418 7 Pedersen 37555 vs Pedersson three or less 8 Kristiansen 25070 vs Kristiansson three or less 9 Jensen 24730 vs Jensson three or less 10 Karlsen 22838 vs Karlsson three or less ``` This was probably more than you ever wanted to know about norwegian last names and language history. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/54 "2003-05-14T01:41:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\*I would venture that _-uez_ is a diminutive. So, Dominguez is ‘little Domingo’, i.e. the son of Domingo. \*\* -uez is not a diminutive. The diminutive of Domingo is Dominguito, -ito is the diminutive suffix. -uez is not the only suffix which means “son of (or descendant of)” in Spanish. The common suffix is -ez, as in González and Ramírez, Gómez, and Pérez. Rodrigo and Domingo end in the g(as in guttural) sound, if they ended just in ez the word combination would sound like the first sound of help. Then there is Díaz, which means son of Diego. González- son of Gonzalo Ramírez- son of Ramiro Gómez- Have no idea Pérez- son of Pedro ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/55 "2003-05-14T16:09:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*“In any other country, apart from China, it’s the other way around.” > > Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Ever been to Korea? Probably influenced by China, but certainly a different country. And I can’t believe I don’t remember what the convention is in Japan. \*\* ooops, sorry, you’re right. Countries surrounding China, like Vietnam, would be the same as China, onviously. That was very sloppy of me, thanks ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/56 "2003-05-14T16:17:50Z")
And it’s not Belgium. It’s Hungarian. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/57 "2003-05-14T17:14:05Z")
Nocuous: I’ve been to Norway several times and got familiar with the whole Landsmal/Riksmal/Nynorsk/Bokmal issue. I found it pretty fascintating. Thanks for the research on the -sen names in Norway. That was good! ---
**Author:** ![SchlitzGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@SchlitzGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SchlitzGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/58 "2003-05-14T17:22:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scarlett67 \* > \*\*How about “ter” and “ten”? (Dutch? Can’t think of examples, but I know I’ve seen them.) \*\* I’ve seen TenHoven around our parts. I may have come across a Ter once or twice but I can’t remember any. Wisconsin has two areas of Dutch immigrant settlements: one around the Sheboygan area (on Lake Michigan north of Milwaukee); and one in the Appleton area, on the northern shore of Lake Winnebago (or, southwest of Green Bay, if you prefer). There’s “Ver”, too, but I think it’s just a slurred version of “Vander”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/59 "2003-05-14T17:46:33Z")
Nocuous: This is WAY off topic, but I forgot to add: I just love it when one of those hot Norweigian babes says “Riksmal”. It sounds so sexy the way it flows off the tongue… ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755/60 "2003-05-14T17:48:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > \*\*Gómez- Have no idea > \*\* Son of Gomer? 😉 Am I correct in the surmision that _Juarez_ is “son of Juan” and therefore is a cognate of English _Johnson_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-more-name-prefixes-than-o-mc-or-van/174755.md?page=4)