# Are there any non-kayfabe "pro wrestling" leagues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 26, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048 "2012-02-26T11:23:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/1 "2012-02-26T11:23:02Z")
It’s pretty common knowledge at this point that “professional wrestling” as we know it in America is scripted entertainment with pre-determined outcomes, and it’s been that way for about 100 years now. My father was of the belief that wrestling was still “real” when he was a kid back in the '50s, but even then, when it involved more grappling than acrobatics and tumbling as it does today, it still wasn’t for real. I imagine, though, that there must be a market for people who want to watch _real_ fighting along the lines of what the WWE or TNA provides - i’d certainly enjoy watching it at least on a casual level. So my question is this; is there any such thing as an organization or league, however small or bush-league, anywhere in the world, that features unscripted fighting, of a similar style to what we consider pro wrestling, where the match outcome is not determined in advance and the competitors are actually trying to hurt each other? Has one existed at any point in recent history? My gut instinct is no - most of the moves that pro wrestlers use look flashy but wouldn’t be as effective in a real fight as grapping and matwork, and the closest thing to what i’m looking for would be some sort of UFC or MMA. I’d love to be enlightened if i’m wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/2 "2012-02-26T12:36:26Z")
I really can’t imaging that existing in a “pro wrestling” style. So many of those moves inherently require the “victim” to help, or even initiate the moves themselves. You might be able to find a very old school, mat-wrestling league that’s legit, but you’re really going to have better luck with something like MMA. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/3 "2012-02-26T13:48:15Z")
MMA ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/4 "2012-02-26T14:36:57Z")
Would NCAA college wrestling fit what you’re looking for? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/5 "2012-02-26T15:56:51Z")
Basically the early stages of organized MMA were based on “what if pro wrestling were real?” The early events were more like gladiator fights with varying level of rules. Too violent for most state athletic commissions. Two things basically changed it. The Gracie family proving that a good grappler could easily take out a good pounder, and the UFC being able to package it into a format that athletic commissions were happy with. Early MMA fights are probably what you are thinking of. Current UFC is the closest now. Wrestling, judo and boxing combined. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/6 "2012-02-26T16:05:02Z")
I know of a couple of fight clubs but nothing like UFC or wrestling type fighting. It is mainly MMA at a much lesser level of experience. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/7 "2012-02-26T16:08:20Z")
Not really because it’s mostly invented for theater, much like a John Wayne fight. There is [Greco Roman](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJu4haeubRo) that’s real. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/8 "2012-02-26T16:45:18Z")
Yeah, it can’t be real. Then it would be like amateur wrestling, and you can’t give away tickets to that. Go to an amateur wrestling event and you’ll find every member of the audience is a friend or family member of the participants. It’s just not very entertaining. In addition, like most martial arts, they can’t be practiced in competition without strict limitations. Otherwise severe injury and death is likely to occur. Wrestling is particularly problematic because the difference between a legal hold and one that will cause a permanent injury may be imperceptible, and can be passed off as an accident. This is what turned pro-wrestling from a legitimate competitive sport into theater. Ironically now, instead of worrying about getting their tendons torn by a dishonest competitor, pro-wrestlers do it to themselves in order to entertain. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/9 "2012-02-26T23:12:02Z")
> **[Real Pro Wrestling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Pro_Wrestling)** > > Real Pro Wrestling (also known as RPW or RealPro Wrestling) was a professional sports league of wrestling, similar to the amateur wrestling found in the Olympic Games and at the college and high school level. The term "real" was meant to emphasize that it was professional and it was wrestling, but that it was not professional wrestling in the traditional sense; modern professional wrestling features predetermined outcomes and operates under a very different set of rules from amateur wrestling. > R... It happened. It failed. ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/10 "2012-02-26T23:41:47Z")
Since all of the fun moves involve catching or cooperating, it would look like amateur wrestling, which isn’t fun to watch, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/11 "2012-02-26T23:51:30Z")
Contrary to what others have said on this thread, it sounds to me like there IS something like what you are after – Pancrase. It’s a Japanese fighting league with rules basically like pro wrestling, except that it is real. “…The promotion had a rule-set more similar to that of professional wrestling than those used in contemporary fighting organizations such as Shooto. Just as in Japanese professional wrestling, closed-fisted punches to the head were illegal (however, close fisted punches to the body were allowed). Instead, a fighter had to strike to the head with a palm strike, and submission holds had to be broken when a competitor made it to the ropes…” ([Pancrase - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancrase)) I’ve seen a number of Pancrase fights and I liked the concept. Their attire was also similar to that worn by a lot of pro wrestlers in the past. Watch some fights from ~ a decade ago and you can see some of fighters that later migrated to the UFC, like Bas Rutten and Frank Shamrock. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/12 "2012-02-26T23:58:54Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Contrary to what others have said on this thread, it sounds to me like there IS something like what you are after – Pancrase. It’s a Japanese fighting league with rules basically like pro wrestling, except that it is real. The jury’s still out on the nature of Pancrase. I’m not passing judgement, but there’s something fishy about that sport. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/13 "2012-02-27T00:14:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yeah, it can’t be real. Then it would be like amateur wrestling, and you can’t give away tickets to that. Go to an amateur wrestling event and you’ll find every member of the audience is a friend or family member of the participants. It’s just not very entertaining. Not true. In some parts of the country, wrestling is very popular. Parts of the midwest, Pennsylvania, upstate NY…high school wrestling is a very big deal. I’ve known lots of people who watch the New York State high school wrestling championships who aren’t friends or family members of any of the wrestlers. Perhaps you’ve only seen olympic wrestling or high level NCAA competition. Try watching high school wrestling - it is probably the most entertaining level of the sport to watch for the observer who is unfamiliar with the sport. When the competitors get really, really good, their skill level can make scoring difficult for either man. In high school, you will see skilled competitors, but there are just enough mistakes made to allow for high scoring, exciting matches. > [@](#): > > In addition, like most martial arts, they can’t be practiced in competition without strict limitations. Otherwise severe injury and death is likely to occur. Not sure what you mean by this. Joint locks and choke holds are used all the time in submission grappling tournaments. Competitors have the choice of submitting before they pass out or have a joint dislocated, but sometimes these things happen. Submission grappling tournaments frequently take place all over the country and are only gaining in popularity. > [@](#): > > Wrestling is particularly problematic because the difference between a legal hold and one that will cause a permanent injury may be imperceptible, and can be passed off as an accident. This is what turned pro-wrestling from a legitimate competitive sport into theater. I would have to see some evidence for that assertion. It seems much more likely that it evolved into entertainment simply to make the matches more dramatic and entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/14 "2012-02-27T00:17:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The jury’s still out on the nature of Pancrase. I’m not passing judgement, but there’s something fishy about that sport. What do you mean the jury is still out on it? Is it possible that a few matches may have been worked? Certainly. But that has happened in boxing as well, and boxing is considered real, as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/15 "2012-02-27T00:21:49Z")
Armature wrestling at the high school level is the most popular it’s been in 30 years. Meanwhile professional wrestling’s popularity has been down for a decade. The NCAA wrestling tournament will be on ESPN on March 16th and 17th, watch a bit and see if you like it. You can also watch the Olympics and Olympic qualifying events. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/16 "2012-02-27T00:26:10Z")
I’ve watched a career compilation of Bas Rutten’s fights, most of which took place in Pancrase. I can’t imagine anyone knowledgable about the sport would suspect any of those fights of being worked. I would suspect the vast majority of Pancrase fights were real. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/17 "2012-02-27T00:26:12Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Not true. In some parts of the country, wrestling is very popular. Parts of the midwest, Pennsylvania, upstate NY…high school wrestling is a very big deal. I’ve known lots of people who watch the New York State high school wrestling championships who aren’t friends or family members of any of the wrestlers. Perhaps you’ve only seen olympic wrestling or high level NCAA competition. Try watching high school wrestling - it is probably the most entertaining level of the sport to watch for the observer who is unfamiliar with the sport. When the competitors get really, really good, their skill level can make scoring difficult for either man. In high school, you will see skilled competitors, but there are just enough mistakes made to allow for high scoring, exciting matches. Yes, my statement was hyperolic, and in a few regions there is a limited popularity in amateur wrestling. Never the less, no attempt is even made to establish a professional version of the sport. > [@](#): > > Not sure what you mean by this. Joint locks and choke holds are used all the time in submission grappling tournaments. Competitors have the choice of submitting before they pass out or have a joint dislocated, but sometimes these things happen. Submission grappling tournaments frequently take place all over the country and are only gaining in popularity. Many joint locks can quickly injure a party without giving him a chance to tap out. It requires good sportsmanship to avoid serious injuries, which are on the increase in MMA. The biggest problems occur when there is a mismatch, or poor officiating. > [@](#): > > I would have to see some evidence for that assertion. It seems much more likely that it evolved into entertainment simply to make the matches more dramatic and entertaining. Actually the evidence indicates that ‘hookers’ (wrestlers skilled in crippling moves, as in to ‘to hook a leg’) were being paid to injure professional wrestlers when it was a primarily legitimate sport. The fix started as a way for champions to retain their titles. The performance art followed after the matches were rigged. Because wrestling matches were boring. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/18 "2012-02-27T00:47:38Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Many joint locks can quickly injure a party without giving him a chance to tap out. Like what? Assuming both competitors know what they are doing, this very rarely arises. Most injuries happen when someone who is caught in a hold refuses to tap, perhaps thinking they can escape, perhaps because of a refusal to give in. Anyway, your original point was that these sort of holds “…can’t be practiced in competition without strict limitations. Otherwise severe injury and death is likely to occur…” and I am saying that these holds ARE used in competitions all the time. I have even heard of submission grappling tournaments for kids, although the rules may be modified somewhat for these – I’d have to check before I officially submit this crushing piece of evidence in support of my argument. : ) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/19 "2012-02-27T00:51:40Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Anyway, your original point was that these sort of holds “…can’t be practiced in competition without strict limitations. Otherwise severe injury and death is likely to occur…” and I am saying that these holds ARE used in competitions all the time. Which sport currently operates without strict limitations? ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048/20 "2012-02-27T01:01:15Z")
When I was a kid (late fifties early sixties) we were sure that wrestling was real. Our local guys were [Mad Dog Vachon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Vachon) (the villain) and [Igor Vodik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_Igor) the hero. It was disappointing to find out that it was all scripted. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-non-kayfabe-pro-wrestling-leagues/614048.md?page=2)