# Are there any occasions where a married woman is still introduced as "Mrs. John Doe"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 5, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076 "2009-04-05T23:41:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/61 "2009-04-07T15:34:01Z")
Since this thread has largely veered from questions of what the actual practice is to opinions of what they _should_ be, I am moving it to IMHO. I will leave it to the IMHO mods to decide whether it perhaps deserves to go to GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/62 "2009-04-07T15:45:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > On one occasion my husband was asked my name so I could be invited along with him to a formal function. He gave them my _correct_ name. The invitation arrived addressed to “Mr and Mrs. John Doe”. THAT’s the horseshit I’m talking about. The organizers even asked for my name, then didn’t use it? HOW is that polite or mannered? It’s insulting and demeaning. Granted, that was a couple decades ago and I hope society has matured and some of the idiots have died off in the meanwhile. > > Unless a women _specifically_ says “Address me as Mrs. John Doe” it should NEVER be the default. Never. The idea that people would ignore what you choose to be called is beyond bad manners, is insulting and demeaning, and just plain shitty. How would your husband feel about being called “Mr. Mary Doe” or “Mr. Mary Roe?” ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/63 "2009-04-07T19:08:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If you did that to me I’d seriously consider ending our correspondence permanently. No one who knows me as a human being would do that, because they know I would find it horribly offensive. > Whereas I would applaud their manners. > 45 > There are a LOT of women who feel as I do. It’s even come up before on the Dope. > > I will, however, point out that you are from the deeper south end of the country and I am a northern yankee - I have long suspected this deplorable and dehumanizing custom has stronger roots south of the Mason-Dixon line. Sorry.. Long Island, born and bred raised by traditional parents. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/64 "2009-04-07T19:12:34Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > The idea that people would ignore what you choose to be called is beyond bad manners, is insulting and demeaning, and just plain shitty. > > How would your husband feel about being called “Mr. Mary Doe” or “Mr. Mary Roe?” They didn’t ignore it unless her husband specifically said..“My wife doesn’t care for the tradition of being addressed as Mr and Mrs John Smith so please put her first name on the address”. They may have asked and then were informed that tradition (usually…) dictates that Mr and Mrs John Smith is more formal and appropriate than Mr John Smith and Ms. Sally Smith on a wedding invitation. [http://www.yourwedding101.com/wedding-invitations/addressing-invitations.aspx](http://www.yourwedding101.com/wedding-invitations/addressing-invitations.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/65 "2009-04-07T19:23:21Z")
Don’t ask me why, but I htink ‘Jon Doe’ has become a symbol in my eyes, rather than a name, making this thread all the more confusing. I must say I’m quite surprised anyone under 90 still uses Mrs. John Doe. How embarrassingly outdated and at least vaguely condescending. I barely even use ‘Mrs.’, if I can avoid it. Certainly feminism is about choice, but that doesn’t mean we can’t aim to change the social pressures and outdated customs that influence some choices. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/66 "2009-04-07T19:28:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > One of the things I used to do in corporate America was, in fact, finding out the proper name of peoples’ spouses for things like company gatherings. There is no excuse for this outdated practice any longer. As I was thinking about this thread, it occurred to me to ask about wedding invitations. Over my lifetime I have probably received fifty or so wedding invitations. EVERY ONE hosted by the parents, without exception, was written as follows: Mr and Mrs John Smith Request the honor… OR. Ms Jane Doe request the honor..(for single moms) OR Mr and Mrs John Smith and Ms Jane Doe (for parents that are divorced) Etc. NOT ONCE have I ever received an invitation that read. John and Sally Smith request the honor… Is that how it is usually done with your family and friends? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/67 "2009-04-07T19:28:22Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Client’s wife, husband’s work functions- I’m getting confused. > > Do you guys mean that you call the client’s wife " Mrs John Doe" or introduce yourself as “Mrs John Doe” at your husband’s work functions ? > > or do you address the invitation to the client and his wife jointly as “Mr& Mrs John Doe” and introduce yourself as Jane Doe (even though you actually use Jane Smith) at your husband’s work functions? > The first set I’ve never seen - the second set is very common. I introduce myself as both Mrs John Doe and Dangerosa Doe at my husband’s work functions, even though my last name is Smith. (If my last name were Smith, I’d probably use that - my last name isn’t easy and I don’t expect my coworkers to remember it - and his last name provides context) I’m one of those women who kept my own last name, but don’t get my panties in a bunch if people use my husband’s last name - provided I’m not paying them or they aren’t close enough that its reasonable for them to know. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/68 "2009-04-07T19:35:51Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I introduce myself as both Mrs John Doe and Dangerosa Doe at my husband’s work functions, even though my last name is Smith. > > (If my last name were Smith, I’d probably use that - my last name isn’t easy and I don’t expect my coworkers to remember it - and his last name provides context) > > I’m one of those women who kept my own last name, but don’t get my panties in a bunch if people use my husband’s last name - provided I’m not paying them or they aren’t close enough that its reasonable for them to know. I am with you. I didn’t take my husband’s name but certainly have no problem with mail addressed to Mr and Mrs John Smith. I do introduce myself to his friends and co workers as Sally Smith and not Sally Jones though. Why confuse the issue? I also use Sally Smith at our daughter’s school. My identity doesn’t revolve around what someone calls me. (Just don’t call me late for dinner.. har har) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/69 "2009-04-07T19:39:50Z")
By the way, I as I said, I do expect people who should know my name (family, friends) to know and use my name. But I will use his as a convienence for other people who know me only in the context of him. As long as people aren’t calling me “hey, Bitch” it has little effect on my identity, independence, self esteem or feminist awareness if his aunt has never learned my last name or if his coworkers are unaware of my legal name. I’d rather have them call me Mrs. Doe (no reason to really call me Mrs. John Doe) than stumble for a name - first or last. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/70 "2009-04-07T19:43:44Z")
Sorry, post 67 should be “don’t expect HIS coworkers to remember it” - I do expect MY coworkers to know my real name… There we have the opposite issue, they don’t know his last name. Although he is pretty reasonable about people assuming his name is John Smith… ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/71 "2009-04-07T19:49:56Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > They may have asked and then were informed that tradition (usually…) dictates that Mr and Mrs John Smith is more formal and **appropriate** than Mr John Smith and Ms. Sally Smith on a wedding invitation. Depends on what you think etiquette means, of course–the way I was brought up, the most appropriate way to address someone is how they want to be addressed. Basically, anything that comes to my house addressed to Mrs. Zer Zerlastname from someone who she’s talked to about it previously (looking right at you, grandpa) will cause my wife to pitch a wholly deserved rant. I mean, if she thinks it’s insulting, and she took the time to let you know that in a polite way, in what world is it appropriate to continue doing something she’s alerted you that she finds insulting, especially when the alternative is not vulgar nor rude in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/72 "2009-04-07T19:52:53Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > NOT ONCE have I ever received an invitation that read. > > John and Sally Smith request the honor… > > Is that how it is usually done with your family and friends? Of the half-dozen or so invitations I’ve received from parents of the whoever, this is universally the format they’ve been in. The majority of my friends self-funded even their first weddings so it was usually “John Doe and Jane Smith request the honor of your presence at their marriage” ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/73 "2009-04-07T20:07:39Z")
I read a wedding announcement from the 1960’s that read thusly: Mr. Charles Russell Lea, Jr. son of the late Mr. & Mrs. Charles Russell Lea Sr. and stepson of Mrs. Charles Russell Lea Sr. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/74 "2009-04-07T20:13:18Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Depends on what you think etiquette means, of course–the way I was brought up, the most appropriate way to address someone is how they want to be addressed. Basically, anything that comes to my house addressed to Mrs. Zer Zerlastname from someone who she’s talked to about it previously (looking right at you, grandpa) will cause my wife to pitch a wholly deserved rant. > > I mean, if she thinks it’s insulting, and she took the time to let you know that in a polite way, in what world is it appropriate to continue doing something she’s alerted you that she finds insulting, especially when the alternative is not vulgar nor rude in and of itself. Which if you read my reply other than what you quoted, you would notice I wrote that it depends if the husband made the person doing the inviting AWARE that the wife finds the tradition insulting. I was assuming they asked the name to be polite and wasn’t told she gets upset if it is done any other way. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/75 "2009-04-07T20:20:02Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Of the half-dozen or so invitations I’ve received from parents of the whoever, this is universally the format they’ve been in. > > The majority of my friends self-funded even their first weddings so it was usually > > “John Doe and Jane Smith request the honor of your presence at their marriage” I really do find this thread intriguing. Apparently it isn’t an age thing. Doesn’t seem to be a location thing. PA and IN are north but I am from NY and have friends and family in Mass, NJ and CT and it has always been done Mr and Mrs John Smith. Nationality? Race? Education? Culture? Income? Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/76 "2009-04-07T20:44:24Z")
Not a wedding invitation, but when I was 17 I did recieve a very strangely address thank you not. My mother & I were the only family members from his side to attend my uncle’s 2nd wedding (it was a small house wedding). No formal invitations at all. My new aunt did send thank you cards out to everyone. Wanna guess how she addressed our thank you card? _Mr & Mrs Alpha Boi_. :eek: Later she realized how bizarre it looked. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/77 "2009-04-07T21:13:10Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I really do find this thread intriguing. Apparently it isn’t an age thing. Doesn’t seem to be a location thing. PA and IN are north but I am from NY and have friends and family in Mass, NJ and CT and it has always been done Mr and Mrs John Smith. Nationality? Race? Education? Culture? Income? > > Hmmm. All the above - which is why I try (though I’m not always successful - some people I’m just contrary with) not to get my panties in a bunch over what I’m called - as long as people are being respectful. What respectful means varies so much from person to person that I think the safest assumption is that people are not trying to insult you. If, over time, someone manages to repeatedly show that my assumption about their good intentions are mistaken, then I can throw them in the “asshole” bucket. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/78 "2009-04-07T21:13:21Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > Sorry.. Long Island, born and bred raised by traditional parents. Your location tag says “Central Florida”, which is most assuredly in the _south_. Granted I assumed, but I had no reason to believe you were originally from New York. And “traditional” in _what?_ Upper class WASP culture? Appalacian mountain folk? Orthodox Jew? It’s not like the US has ever been homogenous. > [@Foxy40](#): > > They didn’t ignore it unless her husband specifically said..“My wife doesn’t care for the tradition of being addressed as Mr and Mrs John Smith so please put her first name on the address”. > > They may have asked and then were informed that tradition (usually…) dictates that Mr and Mrs John Smith is more formal and appropriate than Mr John Smith and Ms. Sally Smith on a wedding invitation. First of all, WHY do you asssume it was a wedding? Did I _say_ “wedding” anywhere in that post? No. It wasn’t a wedding. Second, since my husband is VERY aware of how I feel he simply would not mention my name in that context _without_ also mentioning my feelings about the subject. It just would not happen the way you suggest. You’re grasping at straws here. > [@Foxy40](#): > > As I was thinking about this thread, it occurred to me to ask about wedding invitations. Over my lifetime I have probably received fifty or so wedding invitations. EVERY ONE hosted by the parents, without exception, was written as follows: > > Mr and Mrs John Smith Request the honor… > > OR. > > Ms Jane Doe request the honor..(for single moms) > > OR > > Mr and Mrs John Smith > > and Ms Jane Doe (for parents that are divorced) > > Etc. > > NOT ONCE have I ever received an invitation that read. > > John and Sally Smith request the honor… > > Is that how it is usually done with your family and friends? Yes, that is usually how it’s done in the circles I live in, except when the marrying parties host it themselves, which is actually much, much more common among my friends and family. I don’t care how “traditional” that horrible custom is - I don’t go to weddings I’m not invited to. Period. Either address an invitation by my proper name or I simply won’t be there. I won’t RSVP to something addressed to another person either. It’s unlikely, but if I’m ever invited to the White House they better freakin’ put MY name in the invitation or the same applies. Ditto for the Queen of England or the Galactic Emperor. I have only had to act on that once - and, in fact, it was a wedding I did not attend. Horror amongst the elder relatives ensured. I didn’t care. After that, no one has made that mistake ever again and my family and friends now grant me the dignity of MY OWN name. > [@Foxy40](#): > > Which if you read my reply other than what you quoted, you would notice I wrote that it depends if the husband made the person doing the inviting AWARE that the wife finds the tradition insulting. > > I was assuming they asked the name to be polite and wasn’t told she gets upset if it is done any other way. Leaving aside that is makes _no sense_ to ask a person’s name and then _not use it_ there is absolutely no chance my husband would tell them my name _without_ letting them know my feelings on the subject. Now, if someone _has never met me before_ and _doesn’t know me_ and asks “Are you Mrs. Doe?” I have no problem with that - it’s just another way to ask if I’m John Doe’s wife. Ask me if I’m _Mrs John Doe_ I’ll say no - John Doe is my _husband_, I am Jane Smith-Doe. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/79 "2009-04-07T21:15:25Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I really do find this thread intriguing. Apparently it isn’t an age thing. Doesn’t seem to be a location thing. PA and IN are north but I am from NY and have friends and family in Mass, NJ and CT and it has always been done Mr and Mrs John Smith. Nationality? Race? Education? Culture? Income? > > Hmmm. I expect “liberal college town” and “I know lots of feminists” might well be it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076/80 "2009-04-07T21:19:02Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I really do find this thread intriguing. Apparently it isn’t an age thing. Doesn’t seem to be a location thing. PA and IN are north but I am from NY and have friends and family in Mass, NJ and CT and it has always been done Mr and Mrs John Smith. Nationality? Race? Education? Culture? Income? > > Hmmm. You, as in Americans as a whole, tend to be somewhat conservative, so you cling to old offensive traditions, be they surrendering one’s name to a male spouse, or resisting gay marriage, or melding church and state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-occasions-where-a-married-woman-is-still-introduced-as-mrs-john-doe/492076.md?page=5)