# Are there any other gods that died for me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730 "2010-02-28T06:10:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/41 "2010-03-01T23:40:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I > **CJJ** \* notes that according to Aeschylus, it took thirteen generations after Prometheus’ little chat with Io for Hercules to show up. Because Heracles was the 13 times grandson of Io. In case anyone is interested, Heracles was the son of Zeus and **Alcmene**. Alcmene was the daughter of **Electryon** and Anaxo. Electryon was the son of **Perseus** and Andromeda. Perseus was the son of Zeus and **Danae**. Danae was the daughter of **Acristus** and somebody. Acristus was the son of **Abas** and Aglaia. Abas was the son of Lynceus and **Hypermestra**. Hypermestra was the daughter of **Danaus** , father of the Argives and Pieria. Danaus was the son of **Belus** and Achiroe. Belus was the son of Poseidon and **Libya**. Libya was the daughter of **Epaphus** and Memphis. Epaphus was the son of Zeus and **Io**. So that’s 13 generations. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/42 "2010-03-02T04:49:02Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > As to the question of whether Jesus went to Hell when he died, 1 Peter 3:18b-20aff seems to suggest so. > > “Seems to suggest” I said. > > Anyway, it was actually a bit beside the point to ask whether the NT says Jesus went to hell, since clearly the quoted Creed says so and it is as definitive of Christian doctrine as anything. My old church omitted that part of the creed (I found it on the internet independently around the same time, which is the only reason i noticed). So yeah, the whole “descended into hell” thing isn’t even consistent among Christians. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/43 "2010-03-02T12:31:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Osiris also had his “body” ritually eaten in the form of bread. Please cite that. I read a lot about Osiris and knew there was a bread and wine rememberance but no ritual of eating his body. Isis gathered his parts and then flew over him in the form of a dove and concieved Horus. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/44 "2010-03-02T13:02:05Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Interesting question. But the answer broadens when you consider Jesus not to be god, but to be a sacrifice made by a god. He is Isaac (or rather, the lamb), not Abraham. The whole Jesus-son-of-god came later, and the trinity Jesus AS God, at l[east three hundred years later.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity) That’s not true. The concept derives most strongly from the Gospel of John, which most scholars agree was written earlier than 100 A.D. (“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;” _the Word_, as John uses it, is clearly Jesus.) There are plenty of concatenations of “Father and Holy Spirit” in the Synoptic Gospels as well. It’s true that the doctrine was formalized by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., and it’s that event you may be thinking of. But the idea did not originate there, and a moment’s thought about the history of the early church and its relationship with Rome in the three hundred years prior might give a clue while there were not widespread, openly-attended theological conferences to authoritatively promulgate such points. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/45 "2010-03-02T15:09:42Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Odin is the All-father. His wisdom embiggens us all. He’s a perfectly cromulent God. In the Norse mythos, there’s also Balder, but if I recall correctly he didn’t really die for humanity as much as die because Loki is a dick. But I suspect there’s a deeper symbolism involved that I don’t fully understand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/46 "2010-03-02T15:43:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not true. > > The concept derives most strongly from the Gospel of John, which most scholars agree was written earlier than 100 A.D. (“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;” _the Word_, as John uses it, is clearly Jesus.) > > There are plenty of concatenations of “Father and Holy Spirit” in the Synoptic Gospels as well. > > It’s true that the doctrine was formalized by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., and it’s that event you may be thinking of. But the idea did not originate there, and a moment’s thought about the history of the early church and its relationship with Rome in the three hundred years prior might give a clue while there were not widespread, openly-attended theological conferences to authoritatively promulgate such points. There is no Trinitarian doctrine in the New Testament. There are passages which were later used to paste one together, but the NT never actually says that God is triune or that the “father, son and holy spirit” are all the same thing). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/47 "2010-03-02T16:08:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Please cite that. I read a lot about Osiris and knew there was a bread and wine rememberance but no ritual of eating his body. Isis gathered his parts and then flew over him in the form of a dove and concieved Horus. > [@](#): > > At the temple of Mendes, figures of Osiris are made from wheat and paste placed in a trough on the day of the murder, then water was added for several days, until finally the mixture was kneaded into a mold of Osiris and taken to the temple to be buried (the sacred grain for these cakes were grown only in the temple fields). Molds were made from the wood of a red tree in the forms of the sixteen dismembered parts of Osiris, the cakes of ‘divine’ bread were made from each mold, placed in a silver chest and set near the head of the god with the inward parts of Osiris as described in the Book of the Dead (XVII). On the first day of the Festival of Ploughing, where the goddess Isis appears in her shrine where she is stripped naked, paste made from the grain were placed in her bed and moistened with water, representing the fecund earth. _All of these sacred rituals were climaxed by the eating of sacramental god, the eucharist by which the celebrants were transformed, in their persuasion, into replicas of their god-man_ (Larson 20). > **[Osiris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris)** > > Osiris (/oʊˈsaɪrɪs/, from Egyptian wsjr)\[a\] was the god of fertility, agriculture, the afterlife, the dead, resurrection, life, and vegetation in ancient Egyptian religion. He was classically depicted as a green-skinned deity with a pharaoh's beard, partially mummy-wrapped at the legs, wearing a distinctive atef crown and holding a symbolic crook and flail. He was one of the first to be associated with the mummy wrap. When his brother Seth cut him to pieces after killing him, with her sister N Os... Osiris’ eucharist also included the drinking of beer. Osiris basically symbolized the annual “death and resurrection” of the wheat crop. His “body” was destroyed and scattered across the land until it was “resurrected” as grain. It was a fairly common agricultural mythological motif. Practically all mythological motifs ultimately derive from agricultural, seasonal or astronomical events. The miracle of Dionysus, the god of the vine, for instance was changing water into wine. This was derived from the very literal “transformation” of water into grape juice via the grave vine. Please note that I don’t think any of the pagan mystery cult influences on Christianity mean that there couldn’t have been a historical Jesus, just that his cult adopted some of the forms and motifs of traditional mystery cults once it became primarily a Gentile movement under Paul. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/48 "2010-03-03T13:31:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Osiris - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris) > > Osiris’ eucharist also included the drinking of beer. Osiris basically symbolized the annual “death and resurrection” of the wheat crop. His “body” was destroyed and scattered across the land until it was “resurrected” as grain. It was a fairly common agricultural mythological motif. > > Practically all mythological motifs ultimately derive from agricultural, seasonal or astronomical events. The miracle of Dionysus, the god of the vine, for instance was changing water into wine. This was derived from the very literal “transformation” of water into grape juice via the grave vine. > > Please note that I don’t think any of the pagan mystery cult influences on Christianity mean that there couldn’t have been a historical Jesus, just that his cult adopted some of the forms and motifs of traditional mystery cults once it became primarily a Gentile movement under Paul. Thanks, I always thought that Christians could have borrowed a lot from the Egyptian Gods as there was so much that Jesus had in Common with Osiris and Horus. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/49 "2010-03-03T13:40:38Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > [Atonement theology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity) covers this. There have been three major theories advanced (don’t ask me to defend any of them): > > 1. Ransom atonement; basically, Adam and Eve’s sin “sold” humanity to Satan (all souls went to hell at death), but the death of Christ was so valuable that it paid off this debt. This was prevalent in the early church, but is now out of vogue. > > 2. Substitution atonement; similar to the above, but discards the payment metaphor and emphasizes Christ’s sacrifice as voluntary; he substitutes himself for whatever penalty we rightly deserve. This, I believe, is the mainstream Christian view. > > 3. Moral atonement; this is pretty close to your PR stunt; Christ’s perfect obiendence “even unto death” serves as such a perfect moral exemplar that people who hear about it are naturally influenced away from sin. There is no mention of a soul in the Genesis account that I have read…just that the punishment was death. People still die after the crucifixion, so I would guess that is how the theologians decided to use a soul that went to joy or eternal punishment. Why the soul should suffer for the body or vise versa does not make sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/50 "2010-03-03T16:15:04Z")
The Jewish eschaton prior to Christianity assumed a bodily resurrection of all the dead, followed by a judgement,after which the good people got eternal life in paradise (whether that paradise is worldly or otherworldly is a little vague…it seems like it was probably originally envisioned as simply a renewed Eden on earth), and the bad people were killed – not sent to eternal torment, just eternal death, sometimes expressed as being metaphorically tossed into the flames of Gehenna. The ancient Jews saw this resurrection as physical, but Paul said that physical resurrections can’t happen, and that everyone would be given shiny, new “spiritual bodies” instead. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/51 "2010-03-03T16:49:43Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Interesting question. But the answer broadens when you consider Jesus not to be god, but to be a sacrifice made by a god. He is Isaac (or rather, the lamb), not Abraham. The whole Jesus-son-of-god came later, and the trinity Jesus AS God, at l[east three hundred years later.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity) The doctrine of the Trinity was codified later, but as Bricker says, the genesis of the doctrine can be found in the scriptures. It doesn’t use the word trinity or triune, but it makes clear references in different places to Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit as God. Your assertion that Jesus-as-God came later is totally false. Jesus claims to be God in all four Gospels, the _latest_ of which written probably by the end of the first century and the earliest within the first decades after the crucifixion. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/52 "2010-03-03T20:39:38Z")
Quoth **Jragon** : > [@](#): > > My old church omitted that part of the creed (I found it on the internet independently around the same time, which is the only reason i noticed). So yeah, the whole “descended into hell” thing isn’t even consistent among Christians. More likely, your church uses a different creed. The Apostle’s Creed, which mentions Jesus descending into Hell, is the older one, but the one more commonly encountered is the more recent Nicene Creed, which despite being longer and more detailed, does not say anything about Jesus descending into Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/53 "2010-03-03T21:58:50Z")
I’ve also seen the Apostle’s Creed rendered as “He descended into Death.” Which may not be a faithful translation, but avoids the descent to Hell controversy. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/54 "2010-03-04T04:51:22Z")
After finally making humans that were functional, the Aztec gods realized that they’d need sunlight to keep them alive. They asked for volunteers to become the suns (for some reason there needed to be two), knowing that the gods who became suns would die after throwing themselves into a fire. Nanahuatzin sacrificed himself first and had the honor of becoming the sun. Tecciztecatl, who was a coward and couldn’t force himself into the fire until Nanahuatzin had, became the second sun, but annoyed at his cowardess the remaining gods threw a rabbit at his sun to dim it so he’d be less honored, and therefore he’s now the moon. ---
**Author:** ![Peanuthead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peanuthead/32/360_2.png) [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/55 "2010-03-04T05:51:43Z")
\*\*Are there any other gods that died for me? \*\* Not yet, but I’ll put you on my list. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/56 "2010-03-04T13:08:08Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > The doctrine of the Trinity was codified later, but as Bricker says, the genesis of the doctrine can be found in the scriptures. It doesn’t use the word trinity or triune, but it makes clear references in different places to Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit as God. > > Your assertion that Jesus-as-God came later is totally false. Jesus claims to be God in all four Gospels, the _latest_ of which written probably by the end of the first century and the earliest within the first decades after the crucifixion. Jesus used the Psalmist to state that God was His father. He didn’t(if you take all his teachings into account) ever really state that he was more divine than anyone else,he reminded the people that the psalmist stated, " I say you are gods and sons of the most high"He also refered at your father and mine and taught them to say ‘Our Father’. If the psalmist used the singular, it would have been You are god and son of the most high! ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/57 "2010-03-04T17:01:26Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > He didn’t(if you take all his teachings into account) ever really state that he was more divine than anyone else According to the Gospels he did. Luke 5:20-21; Mark 2:5-7 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’ Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, ‘Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’” Mark 14:61-62 “Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘_I am_,’ said Jesus.” [“I am” -\> YHWH, the holy name of God.] John 10:31-33 “Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’” It’s arguable that without claiming to _be_ God, Jesus was claiming for himself authority that the Jews generally believed only belonged to God. But it’s clear that his followers and enemies believed he was claiming to be God, and he never corrected them. There are many more examples, these are just the first I thought of. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/58 "2010-03-04T18:41:43Z")
Claiming to be the Christ was not a claim to be God. The Christ was not God in Judaism. “I am” is not the tetragrammaton in Greek or Aaramaic, only in Hebrew. Mark has Jesus say, “ἐγώ εἰμι,” not “YHWH,” and he does not indicate that Jesus spoke Hebrew. Nor would it be a claim to divinity even if he had. Speaking the name of God is not the same as claiming to BE God. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/59 "2010-03-04T18:54:22Z")
Your translation for John 10:33 is incorrect by the way. It doesn’t say, “you…claim to be God,” It says, “You _make_ yourself God” (ποιεῖς σεαυτὸν θεόν ). That word, ποιεῖς (“you make”), can also mean to “act like” or “act as,” but it doesn’t mean to “claim,” except (perhaps in the perception of those watching) by your actions. This passage is not an assertion by Jesus’ assailants that he literally declared himself to be God, but that he was _acting_ like he was. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730/60 "2010-03-05T14:35:21Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > According to the Gospels he did. > > Luke 5:20-21; Mark 2:5-7 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’ Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, ‘Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’” > > Mark 14:61-62 “Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘_I am_,’ said Jesus.” [“I am” -\> YHWH, the holy name of God.] > > John 10:31-33 “Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’” > > It’s arguable that without claiming to _be_ God, Jesus was claiming for himself authority that the Jews generally believed only belonged to God. But it’s clear that his followers and enemies believed he was claiming to be God, and he never corrected them. There are many more examples, these are just the first I thought of. That still doesn’t mean he thought he was more divine than any other human being. Looking back at the Psalmist when accused of Blasphmey, Jesus remineded them that their fathers were also called gods, and sons of god. Notice he was quoted as saying"many miracles from the Father". Not from himself. Some followers today also believe that The Father is directly speaking to them,and some believe them, that doesn’t take away the fact that Jesus (many times ) refered to “my father and yours”, Notice no adoptions! Jim Jones and others get people to follow them, but it is just that some humans need another to think for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-other-gods-that-died-for-me/530730.md?page=4)