# Are There Any Players/Managers Who Refused To Play With/Against Jackie Robinson, Or Were Openly Hostile To Him, In The Hall of Fame **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [August 3, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039 "2022-08-03T16:59:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/21 "2022-08-08T20:55:45Z")
Trouble is, the truth of the matter is now obscured. We won’t find out exactly what happened but it’s clear the common image of Cobb as nothing but a mean son of a bitch is off the mark, but he was no angel either. And Cobb’s life wouldn’t be the subject of scrutiny if he wasn’t arguably the best baseball player who ever lived. There were plenty of rotten baseball players who didn’t make the record books. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2022, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/22 "2022-08-08T22:16:16Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Leerhson doesn’t even mention one of Cobb’s most impressive achievements – when he told the press that he could hit home runs if he wanted to; he just didn’t want to. To prove it, the next two days he swung for the fences and set an AL record for most home runs in two games (5) that lasted for decades. Did he ever explain _why_ he didn’t want to hit home runs? It sounds like an odd choice. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2022, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/23 "2022-08-08T22:39:17Z")
I could make a guess, and it would tie in with the dislike of the “three true outcomes” that’s heavily influencing baseball. Even if the analytics are correct, it seems intuitively wrong that swinging for the fences and otherwise striking out is somehow better than putting the ball in play, especially looking for just getting contact and trying to “hit it where they ain’t” or even a bunt attempt. Same with all the other small ball that doesn’t seem to be in the game these days. So I could be wildly wrong, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the reasoning was something like “that’s not how baseball should be played.” ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/24 "2022-08-08T22:51:20Z")
We seem to be getting a little bit off the topic of Jackie Robinson. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/25 "2022-08-11T18:13:12Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Of major league stars of the 1940s and 1950s, he had positive things to say about Stan Musial, Phil Rizzut, and Jackie Robinson, but few others. Cobb LOVED Roy Campanella, who of course was Black, and claimed Campanella was one of the greatest catchers who ever lived. I may have mentioned this in the past but there is a quote frequently attributed to Cobb that Campanella was the player who most reminded him of himself and Willie Mays (also Black) was the one player he’d pay to see. I’ve always wondered if this wasn’t an error, and someone mixed up the names, because Roy Campanella was NOTHING like Ty Cobb, but Willie Mays very much was. Cobb was a center fielder, extremely fast, had been a very young superprospect, and became baseball’s most feared multi-talented player, which is pretty much a bang on description of Willie Mays. Roy Campanella was certainly a great player, but he was a catcher, slow as hell, and his only consistent offensive skill was hitting dingers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/26 "2022-08-11T18:31:55Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > We seem to be getting a little bit off the topic of Jackie Robinson. That’s how baseball goes. To get back to that, in the end, the answer to the OP is no because, ultimately, no one refused. There was allegedly talk of strikes, most notably in the case of the Cardinals - this isn’t proven, I have to stress - but the league was treating the entire thing as a fait accompli and refusing to play would have been career suicide. The result would have certainly been lifetime banishment. The closest anyone got to refusing was, as noted above, Dixie Walker, who allegedly complained to the Dodgers and asked for a trade - according to most accounts because he was concerned people back in Alabama would be unaccepting of this. However, Walker WASN’T traded until after the 1947 season, and he and Robinson both played great in 1947, got along just fine, and afterwards spoke highly of each other. I think it fair to say having Leo Durocher there during the initial resistance helped. Anyway, Walker isn’t a Hall of Famer; he was a terrific player but the productive part of his career was a bit too short. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/27 "2022-08-11T18:47:43Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > 1. (Leehrson’s) accounts about events on the field never contradict anything Stump says. Leehrson’s book mentions multiple “errors of fact” in the Stump/Cobb autobiography about events on the field - such as Buck Herzog catching and playing second base on the same play, placing Cy Young and Lou Criger on the wrong teams, etc. > [@](#): > > He also failed to mention the reason why Cobb attacked the man in the stands. Leehrson describes Lucker’s campaign of harassment of Cobb from the stands, including previous use of racial invective targeting Cobb’s mother. The verbatim comments that were the immediate cause of Cobb’s going into the stands are not presented. > [@](#): > > Leerhson doesn’t even mention one of Cobb’s most impressive achievements – when he told the press that he could hit home runs if he wanted to; he just didn’t want to. To prove it, the next two days he swung for the fences and set an AL record for most home runs in two games (5) that lasted for decades. Did you find any press reports that mentioned Cobb’s supposed boast at the time he hit those home runs? The story about him in effect calling his shot(s) always sounded a bit fishy to me, though I have no doubt Cobb could have hit a lot more home runs at the expense of his batting average. > [@](#): > > 1. Stump’s books are generally favorable to Cobb, who is portrayed as an admirable (though flawed) figure overall. If you only read Leerhson, you’d think Stump treated Cobb the same way Leerhson treats Stump. I haven’t read Stump’s 1994 biography of Cobb, which is described as being far more detrimental to Cobb than anything appearing in the ghostwritten autobiography of 1961 (even that one paints Cobb as not only antagonistic but violent off the field and prone to gloat about his opponents’ misfortunes). What Leeehrson spends the most time debunking is Stump’s nasty, sensationalistic piece in _True_ magazine in '61, “Ty Cobb’s Wild 10-Month Fight To Live”, which Leehrson refers to as “painted in lurid _Tales from the Crypt_ colors” while using contemporary reports to address Stump’s claims of having spent most of that time with Cobb (when it was more like a few days at best). Cobb and Jackie Robinson were alike in at least one key respect. They were disruptors who threw off their opponents’ game, largely through daring on the basepaths. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/28 "2022-08-12T21:29:02Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The story about him in effect calling his shot(s) always sounded a bit fishy to me, though I have no doubt Cobb could have hit a lot more home runs at the expense of his batting average. Changing how you hit isn’t that easy, and it wasn’t easy at all to hit homers back then. Cobb did win a home run title…with 9. There is no reliable sourcing at all on that story. It makes no sense. While it WAS conventional wisdom that trying to hit home runs was not wise strategy because you’d just fly out a lot, actually hitting a home run was obviously considered the best thing you could do. If Cobb could hit two or three home runs a game at will, he’d have done it. His 5-homer outburst has all the hallmarks of something where that story would grow AFTER the fact. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/29 "2022-08-13T01:31:07Z")
Cobb must have played on huge farm fields, sometimes with no ‘wall’ defined. Cobb would have loved larger fields to pick up extra base hits, he wouldn’t waste his time trying to get one over the ‘wall’. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/30 "2022-08-13T04:36:57Z")
One of the issues was that most of Cobb’s career was during the “dead-ball” era, when offense was generally not high, and home runs were uncommon. A big part of this was that one ball might be used for most of a game, growing increasingly harder to see (and hit) as it became dirty and scuffed, as well as becoming more difficult to hit for distance, as it became softer through use; another factor was that “doctored” pitches (spitballs, shine balls, emery balls) were legal, and a third factor was that a number of major-league parks had very deep outfields During the dead-ball era, home runs were simply not common; that era is generally considered to have ended in 1919, when Babe Ruth set the AL record for home runs in a season with 29. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/31 "2022-08-13T05:26:38Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > During the dead-ball era, home runs were simply not common; that era is generally considered to have ended in 1919, when Babe Ruth set the AL record for home runs in a season with 29. Well, that was the record for either league. Precisely whose record he broke depends when you start counting; Ned Williamson hit 27 home runs in 1884 but if we’re going post-1901, it was Gavvy Cravath’s 24. The dead ball era didn’t just end; it was a gradual process. In 1920, when Babe Ruth hit 54 home runs, the average TEAM that wasn’t the Yankees hit about 40. In 1921 it was still only about 65. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/32 "2022-08-13T12:38:41Z")
Cobb’s only two seasons with double-figure home run totals (12) came in the “live” ball era. An impressive achievement for someone who choked up on the bat and often used a split-handed grip. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/33 "2022-09-02T18:25:09Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > Leerhson doesn’t even mention one of Cobb’s most impressive achievements – when he told the press that he could hit home runs if he wanted to; he just didn’t want to. To prove it, the next two days he swung for the fences and set an AL record for most home runs in two games (5) that lasted for decades. > > Did he ever explain _why_ he didn’t want to hit home runs? It sounds like an odd choice. Cobb said that he didn’t think it was exciting baseball, that it was more thrilling for a batter to single, steal second, then head home on a close play at the plate. He liked the idea that the runner had the chance of being throw out instead of trotting around the bases. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/34 "2022-09-02T18:32:52Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Cobb said that he didn’t think it was exciting baseball, that it was more thrilling for a batter to single, steal second, then head home on a close play at the plate. He liked the idea that the runner had the chance of being throw out instead of trotting around the bases. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > [@Morgyn](#): > > > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > > > Leerhson doesn’t even mention one of Cobb’s most impressive achievements – when he told the press that he could hit home runs if he wanted to; he just didn’t want to. To prove it, the next two days he swung for the fences and set an AL record for most home runs in two games (5) that lasted for decades. > > > > Did he ever explain _why_ he didn’t want to hit home runs? It sounds like an odd choice. > > Cobb said that he didn’t think it was exciting baseball, that it was more thrilling for a batter to single, steal second, then head home on a close play at the plate. **He liked the idea that the runner had the chance of being throw out** instead of trotting around the bases. - To hell with his team winning. Pretty selfish, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/35 "2022-09-02T19:06:05Z")
You’re actually saying that Cobb played to lose? Perhaps the most serious competitor in the history of baseball? Both biographers stressed that aspect of his game. He thought a team could win without the home run and put out a more exciting product. That a close play at the plate was more exciting than watching someone trotting around the bases. You may disagree, and he could have been wrong, but Cobb was all about winning. He just thought you could win without the home run. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/36 "2022-09-02T21:30:27Z")
Cobb was free to his opinion about which game was more exciting. But professional sports are a business. So the opinion that mattered most was that of the fans. They liked the power game. And this in turn influenced the owners to favor it by introducing the lively ball, parks you could hit homers out of, etc. These changes made it harder to win games against teams that hit for power. Cobb’s ability to score a run by singling, stealing, hit-and-running (is that a word?) became less important when home run hitters could score three and fours runs at a time. And the ability to score more runs than the other team is another factor in drawing crowds, and making money. Of course Cobb wasn’t playing to lose. But his style of play was no longer competitive. His declaring that it was more exciting was likely his way of saving face. A more gracious man would have acknowledged this. And I doubt that he really could have competed with Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, etc., in hitting for power. Even if he’d been born 10-15 years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/37 "2022-09-02T22:20:22Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Cobb’s ability to score a run by singling, stealing, hit-and-running (is that a word?) became less important when home run hitters could score three and fours runs at a time… > > Of course Cobb wasn’t playing to lose. But his style of play was no longer competitive. His declaring that it was more exciting was likely his way of saving face. A more gracious man would have acknowledged this. It’s not as if lots of hitters began clobbering home runs in bunches in the 1920s to emulate Ruth, who outhomered _entire teams_ in those days. Example: Ruth hit 46 home runs in 1924, compared to 22 for the Washington Senators. The Senators, despite their lack of home run power, won the World Series that year. Excellent pitching i.e. from Walter Johnson counted for a lot. The mediocre Tigers teams managed by Cobb typically were short on pitching. As a player, Ty Cobb was no more “selfish” than, say, Rod Carew. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/38 "2022-09-04T22:05:17Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > And I doubt that he really could have competed with Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, etc., in hitting for power. Even if he’d been born 10-15 years earlier. When he told people he would hit for power, he set an American League record for most home runs in two games that wasn’t tied for 11 years, and has never been beaten. Then he stopped, feeling he had proved his point. He was 38 at the time. Neither Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, or other power hitters of the era matched it. You could argue that Cobb was wrong about this; it’s likely he was. But it’s clear that he just didn’t want to hit home runs. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/39 "2022-09-04T22:59:27Z")
I’m no baseball expert. I enjoy documentaries on the subject. Robinson put up with considerable prejudice from fans and players. He was able to do what earlier stars like John O’Neil, Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson could not. A number of his teammates on the Montreal Royals and Brooklyn Dodgers had problems, but fans loved it when he batted over .600. Branch Rickey had asked Robinson to have enough guts _not_ to fight back. A number of players in St. Louis had threatened to strike over the issue, and were stopped by the National League. In addition to Slaughter, Dixie Walker, Pee Wee Reese and Coach Ben Chapman were well known opponents but I don’t know if they were acclaimed. I would imagine quite a few successful players would have been opposed, possibly more so if from Southern States… Ty was temperamental enough to beat up a fan who called him half an N-word. He was known for not having much of a sense of humour. Is this false? This might be exaggerated in documentaries and by biographers, but he was chastised by the League in 1909 and many, many people disliked his aggressive attitude. He.obviously did not play with Robinson, who moved to Brooklyn in late 1945. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039/40 "2022-09-05T00:54:31Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > In addition to Slaughter, Dixie Walker, Pee Wee Reese and Coach Ben Chapman were well known opponents but I don’t know if they were acclaimed. Pee Wee Reese was famous for being a Southerner who completely supported Robinson from the beginning. It was Reese who went a long way towards getting others to finally accept Jackie. Reece is in the Hall of Fame but was obviously the exact opposite for what the OP was seeking. > **[Pee Wee Reese | Jackie Robinson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pee_Wee_Reese#Jackie_Robinson)** > > In 1947, some Dodgers players began circulating a petition when word spread that Brooklyn intended to bring Jackie Robinson up from their farm team in Montreal. The players assumed that Reese, who grew up in Louisville, Kentucky, would sign. According to sportswriter Roger Kahn, who later became close friends with Reese, the petition essentially said, "If you bring up the nigger, trade us. We won't play." However, the popular Reese refused to sign the petition and it died. When a sportswriter Re... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-players-managers-who-refused-to-play-with-against-jackie-robinson-or-were-openly-hostile-to-him-in-the-hall-of-fame/969039.md?page=3)