# Are there any "quality" child soldiers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 21, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567 "2013-03-21T19:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/21 "2013-03-22T18:43:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Another function was that it [the Hitler Youth] was a paramilitary organization; among the activities of the HJ was firearms training and conducting assault course drills, you know, crawling through mud under barbed wire and advancing against ‘enemy’ positions. One could also say that firearms training is “among the activities” of the Boy Scouts. There are merit badges for rifle and shotgun shooting, and most camps will have a firing range for the boys’ use. It’s certainly not the _primary_ activity, and arguably not even a major one (I don’t think anyone in my troop got either of the firearms merit badges), but it’s definitely there. As for the “assault courses”, that was never officially on our list, but hardly a campout went by without some sort of game along those lines being put together by the boys. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/22 "2013-03-22T18:46:45Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > No, Overlord was the first time the 12th SS Panzer Division _Hitlerjugend_ saw action. It and the 21st Panzer Division were the closest Panzer Divisions to the landing beaches and both launched unsuccessful attempts to counterattack the British and Canadian beachheads on June 6th. > > Quite possibly, certainly the first mass war crimes in Normandy were committed by the 12th SS. 156 Canadian and 2 British POWs were executed on June 7th and 8th. After the discovery of the bodies of their murdered comrades, fighting between the Canadians and the HJ became quite brutal; both sides more or less stopped taking prisoners… Somehow, this shouldn’t surprise me. I just add it to my cites in my theory that no matter how many examples of Nazi bestiality you may know about, you will always learm of a novel one. > [@md2000](#): > > [Child soldiers] are elss likely to be constricted by social conventions, and may be at times more vicious or sadistic than random adults might be… ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/23 "2013-03-22T23:02:06Z")
I think there were RAF aces or at least have registered kills during BOB while not yet 18 (how hard is it to lie about one’s age during war?) And then there was Col. (ret.) Anthony Herbert who became a master sergeant at 21 because he lied about his age during the Korean war. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/24 "2013-03-23T00:23:02Z")
A book called “The Reader’s Companion to Military History” edited by Robert Crowley and Geoffrey Parker talks about “Children in War” (by Thomas J Arnold). It notes how after Napoleon’s disaster in Russia, he filled his army with beardless teenagers so young they were often mistaken for girls “les Marie Louises”. The Ottoman empire raised their elite corps, the janissaries, by taxing Christians in the balkans, the tax being their sons. A fourteenth century chronicler noted boy soldiers “hot and impetuous, quick with weapons, careless of safety”. German soldier Ernest Junger, a lieutenant at age 19 in the First World war, felt troops of boys of twenty, under experienced leadership, are the best. The Iraq vs Iran wars of the 1980s had Iranian boys of 11. The Khymer Rouge of the 1970s showed that children weren’t born lambs, but quite willing to commit genocide on a massive scale against adults. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/25 "2013-03-23T01:46:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One could also say that firearms training is “among the activities” of the Boy Scouts. There are merit badges for rifle and shotgun shooting, and most camps will have a firing range for the boys’ use. It’s certainly not the _primary_ activity, and arguably not even a major one (I don’t think anyone in my troop got either of the firearms merit badges), but it’s definitely there. That’s the point though; getting a merit badge in firearms isn’t mandatory, and certainly isn’t practiced with M-4 carbines. Firearms training was a mandatory part of the HJ, and was conducted using the same Mauser 98 rifles that they would find themselves using when they came of age (or late in the war, before they came of age) and were drafted into the military. > [@](#): > > As for the “assault courses”, that was never officially on our list, but hardly a campout went by without some sort of game along those lines being put together by the boys. With due respect, there’s a world of difference between a bunch of kids playing grab ass and assault course drills. I only made it to webelos, but I don’t recall ever crawling in the mud under barbed wire making sure to keep the muzzle of my rifle clear of the mud, then practicing assaulting trench lines and bayoneting dummies as part of anything I ever did or heard of. Calling the two comparable is well, the exact same thing as saying kids playing war and boot camp are comparable. ---
**Author:** ![kneegrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@kneegrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kneegrow)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/26 "2013-03-23T12:01:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The actual post is confusing, but the 12th SS Panzer Division (“Hitlerjugend”) fought in Normandy, in the Battle of the Bulge, and on the Eastern Front. It was made of volunteers from the Hitler Youth. They’re the war-crimes guys. It pains me to discover that there are adults who still believe the allies never committed any war crimes. The biggest two are the Dresden bombing and Hiroshima. But I wouldn’t put torture past the Allies as well. And if the Canadians stopped taking prisoners, well that’s a crime too, and of course, it doesn’t matter that the other side did it too. Sure, scale matters, and the extermination of jews and the Roma and the Sinti and the Africans in the death camps knows almost no precedent when it comes to big numbers of people killed in the shortest of times. But to suggest that both sides didn’t do it is dishonest and naive. And if it was just the HJ killing PoWs, in their situation, it’s not so uncommon, they didn’t have the resources to care for them. the Canadians, however, would have had the ability to get those. in the end there’s no good way to compare these things. Just remember, the history is written by the victor, so … ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/27 "2013-03-23T14:40:35Z")
**bump** was clarifying my question, which see, since you which didn’s see. Only. He did not suggest anything else, certainly not what you say he did. Hiroshima was a decisive mission of war, and prevented further Japanese suffering, not to speak of Allied. The Jewish Holocaust is not about number of victims. If it is, that has no bearing. I hope this thread is not hijacked to GD. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/28 "2013-03-23T14:55:55Z")
> [@kneegrow](#): > > It pains me to discover that there are adults who still believe the allies never committed any war crimes. […] This is the “But Clinton!” of World War 2. Someone posts about a specfic war crime committed by a specific Nazi unit, and the response is “But the Allies…!” Where did anyone in this thread say the Allies never commited war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/29 "2013-03-25T14:10:26Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > **bump** was clarifying my question, which see, since you which didn’s see. Only. He did not suggest anything else, certainly not what you say he did. > Hiroshima was a decisive mission of war, and prevented further Japanese suffering, not to speak of Allied. > The Jewish Holocaust is not about number of victims. If it is, that has no bearing. > I hope this thread is not hijacked to GD. Thanks- I was a bit confused. The only distinction I was trying to make is that the Normandy war crimes were by the 12th SS division, not the Hitler Youth as an organization. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/30 "2013-03-25T20:10:47Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > My point was that there is always truth in any fiction. The story came from somewhere, and it is possible it reflects or elaborates on real events, or in the least is a metaphor for reality. If someone started a thread asking for advice on buying an airplane, and I replied, completely seriously, that Harry Potter swears by his Nimbus 2000, would that not be a pretty fucking dumb reply? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567/31 "2013-03-25T20:22:49Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > This all comes from the Book of Mormon, so I do not assume any historical accuracy. It does point out however that it is within the realm of possibility. > > [Two thousand stripling warriors - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_thousand_stripling_warriors#Historical_roots) A bunch of 13 and 14 year old kids once _destroyed_ our group in the paintball arena. I’d argue that that’s an anecdote with a lot more validity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-quality-child-soldiers/653567.md?page=1)