# Are there any solutions to resolving the conflict between Sunnis and Shiites? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630 "2013-04-24T23:28:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/41 "2013-04-26T18:30:15Z")
> [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](#): > > Er … you are aware that there are both Sunni and Shi’ite citizens of the US, aren’t you? Yeah…so? ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/42 "2013-04-26T18:40:59Z")
> [@esmeralda2](#): > > Yes, of course. We should divide and conquer. After all, they are the enemy. :rolleyes: I don’t consider “them” the enemy. All religion is the enemy of reason. ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/43 "2013-04-26T18:59:56Z")
> [@For You](#): > > We just need an international injunction on all religious leadership. All preachers, mullahs, bishops, rabbis, lamas, etc must be imprisoned. Let Rick Warren share a cell with Ali Khamenei, with no opportunity to issue public statements or private directives. People should have the basic right to practice any given religion, but not to use it in any other way. > > And all those religious structures would convert nicely to homeless shelters. Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Sorry if that lands you in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/44 "2013-04-26T20:00:20Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > I don’t consider “them” the enemy. All religion is the enemy of reason. Of course believers in Eugenics, dialectical materialism, the inevitable march of history, the superiority of Deutsch physik(Aryan physics) over Juden physik(Jewish physics) have all viewed themselves as being part of the forces of “reason” fighting against “superstition”. For that matter, I myself was born in country that wound up having a government based on Plato’s The Republic ruled by a Philospher King, protected by a guardian class and overseen by an Assembly of Experts. I’m not a believer, but I find this absurd hatred of religion so many westerners have to be quite ignorant considering that secular philosophies have killed so many more people than any religion. To me, the less of the 20th Century is beware the social engineers not beware the religious. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/45 "2013-04-26T20:02:35Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > I wonder just why from a European perspective stopping them fighting would be a good idea. It seems to be good fortune that they would rather cut each others throats (largely) in their own countries rather than for a united front against us… Well, for starters some of “them” are “us”. Beyond that fear of “them” forming a “united front” against “us” is simply paranoid, racist claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/46 "2013-04-26T20:58:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > . . . I myself was born in country that wound up having a government based on Plato’s The Republic ruled by a Philospher King, protected by a guardian class and overseen by an Assembly of Experts. . . . Brief highjack, which I won’t sustain, but… Tell me a little more? I’d never heard of an attempt to realize Plato’s Republic. I’ve read the damn thing (thought it was a load of rubbish…) It always struck me as fatally flawed. (Same problem with Skinner’s Walden II. There aren’t any checks-and-balances against corruption among the leadership.) But…what country, please? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/47 "2013-04-26T21:12:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Brief highjack, which I won’t sustain, but… Tell me a little more? I’d never heard of an attempt to realize Plato’s Republic. I’ve read the damn thing (thought it was a load of rubbish…) It always struck me as fatally flawed. (Same problem with Skinner’s Walden II. There aren’t any checks-and-balances against corruption among the leadership.) But…what country, please? The Islamic Republic of Iran. Khomeini was heavily influenced by Plato. That’s why he set up his dictatorship of the intellectuals and came up with his own interpretation of Islamic theology, Velayet-e faqih(rule of the judges)\* with himself as the “Supreme Leader” or “Supreme guide”. Plato’s philosopher-king made flesh. If you’re interested, while it’s a small part of the book, I’d recommend Vali Nasr’s _The Shia Revival_. [http://www.amazon.com/The-Shia-Revival-Conflicts-within/dp/0393329682/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367010678&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Shia+Revival](http://www.amazon.com/The-Shia-Revival-Conflicts-within/dp/0393329682/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367010678&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Shia+Revival) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/48 "2013-04-26T23:32:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not a believer, but I find this absurd hatred of religion so many westerners have to be quite ignorant considering that secular philosophies have killed so many more people than any religion. What? ---
**Author:** ![T\_Baggins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b782af/32.png) [@T\_Baggins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_Baggins)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/49 "2013-04-26T23:44:42Z")
There is no problem which cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives. – William W. Hughes ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/50 "2013-04-27T14:05:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, for starters some of “them” are “us”. > > Beyond that fear of “them” forming a “united front” against “us” is simply paranoid, racist claptrap. Poor phraseology on my part and i apologies. Though i regard religion as a man made stupidity i respect others wishes to believe. I am not racist just pointing out id rather have suicide bombers in far off lands than anywhere i might go. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/51 "2013-04-27T14:08:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What? yes what!..ah !.. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/52 "2013-04-27T15:40:43Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > Poor phraseology on my part and i apologies. Though i regard religion as a man made stupidity i respect others wishes to believe. I am not racist just pointing out id rather have suicide bombers in far off lands than anywhere i might go. Apology accepted. There are lots of beliefs that have inspired people to do horrible things other than religious beliefs. Secular philosophies have led to vastly more horror, mass murder and suffering than religious ideology. As for suicide bombers. They developed outside Muslim lands and there were political activists throughout the west engaging in what we’d call “terrorism” long before Muslim immigrants ever came to the West. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/53 "2013-04-27T17:21:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Admittedly, I’m not sure how many if any countries in the world can really crow about women’s rights. Certainly with events like that in Steubensville, I’m always a bit cautious when it comes to lecturing other parts of the world when it comes to women’s rights. I feel no such caution - most of North America and Europe ARE ahead of most of the rest of the world when it comes to women’s rights, and that is an essential difference between functional countries and Borat-style “trouble spots”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/54 "2013-04-28T14:30:02Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So what do you think about my solution Ibn? For what it’s worth, I thought it was amusing. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/55 "2013-04-28T20:30:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Apology accepted. > > There are lots of beliefs that have inspired people to do horrible things other than religious beliefs. > > Secular philosophies have led to vastly more horror, mass murder and suffering than religious ideology. > > As for suicide bombers. They developed outside Muslim lands and there were political activists throughout the west engaging in what we’d call “terrorism” long before Muslim immigrants ever came to the West. I would wonder just what purely non religious beliefs had inspired such things. As an example Naziism looked awfully a lot like a religion. Etc. suicide bombers are pretty frightening to a non religion based system as it is almost impossible to guard against. Teroristwise oh yes indeed, Victorian England harbored many a terrorist, Fenians, and anarchists attacked humanity , the IRA of course did the same. However just because its happened before does not make it any-less bad now. Are you in Iran or an Iranian? as i understand Iran is not as its portrayed by western news who have a definite war agenda. Notably read a blog by a guy who rode a small motorbike through Iran and said how nice everyone was even the police and army lads. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/56 "2013-04-29T00:06:22Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > I would wonder just what purely non religious beliefs had inspired such things. Lots of ones. Imperialism in various manifestations. Beyond that nationalism, particularly blood and soil nationalism in it’s various manifestations was one of the worst gifts the West gave to the rest of the world and it more than any other philosophy has drastically screwed up the Middle East and inevitably gave rise to radical Islam, which prior to the 70s had little influence. And of course, the biggies Communism and Nazism slaughtered vastly more people than even the most blood-thirsty crusader could possibly have seen. > [@](#): > > suicide bombers are pretty frightening to a non religion based system as it is almost impossible to guard against. How are suicide bombers more frightening to a “non religion based system” than to a “religion based system”? > [@](#): > > as i understand Iran is not as its portrayed by western news who have a definite war agenda. Well, I’m not sure which western news media have “a definite war agenda”, but I’ll say that Iran is in many ways much better and in other ways much worse than it’s portrayed in the Western media. To give an obvious example, as a rule Iran is a country in which being gay is extremely dangerous(though less so if you’re a top) but is one of the best countries in the world to be a transgender due to Khomeini’s friendship with one which convinced him to offer free transgender surgeries to any who wanted them. Of course, in the Middle East in general there’s a dramatically different understanding of what is “gay behavior” and what isn’t than in the US, but that doesn’t do much good for the lesbians or gays hanged for “raping” others. > [@](#): > > Notably read a blog by a guy who rode a small motorbike through Iran and said how nice everyone was even the police and army lads. You can read travel logs through Nazi Germany in the 1930s and Stalin’s Russia which said the same thing. Hell, you can probably find similar stories from people traveling through Apartheid South Africa. Beyond that, one of the things that is drilled into all Middle Easterners is the importance of hospitality and making your guests feel at home. You should see my father a few days before we have any guests over. In short, I wouldn’t take that blog as remotely worthwhile as a predictor of how good or bad the government of Iran is. > [@](#): > > Are you in Iran or an Iranian? I’m an Iranian-American. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/57 "2013-04-29T11:36:43Z")
Excuse me, but imperialism existed a long time before the Western world forayed into the Middle East, and as for nationalism, this is merely a product of various ethnic peoples (Mostly Kurds) wanting self determination rather than being ruled by a caliph or emperor. I don’t see how this could be avoided even if the West didn’t export its political influence throughout the region. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/58 "2013-04-29T14:29:20Z")
Suicide bombers in a religious environment can be convinced that they are going to be rewarded in heaven. It harder to convince people to die and cease to exist for some some “greater good”. The idea of the reward in heaven to keep control of a population is not exclusively Muslim every time i have to sit through a Church Of England service i am always struck by what a “slave religion” it is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/59 "2013-04-29T14:57:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Excuse me, but imperialism existed a long time before the Western world forayed into the Middle East, and as for nationalism, this is merely a product of various ethnic peoples (Mostly Kurds) wanting self determination rather than being ruled by a caliph or emperor. I don’t see how this could be avoided even if the West didn’t export its political influence throughout the region. No, nationalism was by no means a natural historical progression anymore than Marxism was a natural historical progression. To give an obvious example, prior to the 20th Century, Arab national consciousness was hardly widespread and was pushed for in the 20th Century by Christians trying to create bonds between them and Arabic-speaking Muslims. Arabic-speaking Jews of course where completely ignored for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630/60 "2013-04-29T18:33:44Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > Suicide bombers in a religious environment can be convinced that they are going to be rewarded in heaven. It harder to convince people to die and cease to exist for some some “greater good”. Suicide bombing was largely the invention of a [secular, quasi-atheist organization](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTTE#Suicide_bombings). Also, your claim makes no sense. Atheists are not a bunch of moral cowards. They are, as a group, perfectly willing to die for a cause they believe in, just like anyone else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-solutions-to-resolving-the-conflict-between-sunnis-and-shiites/656630.md?page=2)