Are there any standards of neutrality for modding?

About This Message Board
41

What are you talking about? Are you talking about the post where Ibn Warraq says:“You’re the one who stupidly brought up the idea that people who’ve been ethnically cleansed have a “right of return”.” (when I did no such thing)

or the one where Fenris says: "DINGDINGDINGDING!

Ladies and Gentlemen of the SDMB. We have a new award winner for the single stupidest “cite?” request in the ~15 year history of the SDMB.

“Were there riots and pogroms against Jews before Zionism?” Really?

Dumbest. Cite-Request. Ever."

First, I’d like to know if we are starting to mod for saying something stupid because that would be useful information.

Second I don’t think you’re following the “context of the moving thread” correctly.

(I just kept hitting the “view post” to see the post that is being replied to).

I’d like to think my failure to be more precise was a mistake and not the dumbest cite request ever but YMMV.

I thought I reported it at the same time I reported Ibn http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17607060&postcount=88 for saying “You’re the one who stupidly brought up the idea that people who’ve been ethnically cleansed have a “right of return”.” (when I clearly didn’t say that I support right of return based on ethnic cleansing (and then got modded later for pointing out that Ibn Warraq is constantly putting words into people’s mouths)

The rule can’t possibly be that you don’t moderate or warn if you don’t notice it until 4 or 5 days later. Is it?

OK, I don’t know everything that Pjen does but it seemed like that particular infraction was not worthy of a warning, perhaps it was cumulative. But if we are giving warnings for cumulative minor fouls, I can think of a few posters on the other side of the debate that might warrant a warning or something. YMMV.

42

Sigh.

As my mother, a retired English teacher would say, “dictionaries don’t define words, they just give common understandings.”

Now, if you’re looking for a word that’s the opposite of “critic” a better word would be “defender”.

If you want to continue charging up hamburger hill and insisting that calling someone an “apologist” is not an insult and doesn’t have negative connotations then go ahead, but it will be seen as insulting.

As for the “threads” pretty much any thread on Islam, particularly threads regarding the bigotry and discrimination Muslims face in Europe.

Similarly, I’ve often been extremely critical of Israel and frankly I suspect that most reasonable people who compared them would say mine were vastly more compelling, sourced, and well-thought out than yours.

You, by contrast couldn’t even refute Terr’s insinuation that most Palestinian Arabs in 1948 were immigrants, despite the overwhelming evidence that immigration was only responsible for a tiny percentage of the Palestinian Arab population of 1948.

43

Anecdotaly, I mostly stay out of Israel threads nowadays because I perceive them as hostile to Israel criticism. Cant say whether that’s down to modding or majority, though. But I do think people can get away with more hostility when there’s not a million shouts of “antisemitism” every post they make.

44

Could you give some examples of people being unfairly accused of that?

I ask because honestly whenever I hear that I’m reminded of white people complaining they can’t criticize Barack Obama/criticize Affirmative Action/criticize black on black crime without getting accused of racism.

45

Since it seems to be upsetting so many people, I have stopped using the term. It had never been pointed out to me that an otherwise neutral term had a pejorative connotation when used to describe people who defend Israel.

What words are presented in those threads where the a cite to the dictionary is weaker than your opinion?

Thats about as useful as saying that I have often been extremely critical of Obama. Hell, Finn Again and Alessan and every other defender of Israel’s Zionism has been critical of Israel at one point or another but it doesn’t make them neutral any more than it makes you. You often repeat the notion that you are a critic of israel but I don’t think any reasoanble reader would think of you as even handed in your criticism and praise for Israel…

I presented evidence, census taken by the brits and assumed population growth rates which would probably get you there, etc but the fact remains that its just theorization and I found no real way to tell if the majority of the people in Palsetine in 1948 were actually born there or were simply born in the region. All the evidence I found pointed to significant immigration into Palestine as Jewish development in the area created jobs and opportunity that attracted immigrants from the arab world.

BTW, if you are so neutral (as you seem to be implying), why didn’t you present this overwhelming evidence? Why do you chime in to provide evidence for the defenders of Israel while sitting silently when you have information that would provide evidence for the other side?

46

Here. Here. Lots of things like that. it’s never anyone outright saying “You’re an antisemite”, it’s more “Oh, well, we know why you’d say that” or even just “So, why are you taking an anti-Israeli stance? No, I’m only JAQing here!” and it’s mostly recurrently directed at a couple of posters.

Me, I’m quite firmly in the middle on the whole Israel-Palestine thing, but like I said, I mostly avoid those threads because of the vibe I get.

47

I don’t see any accusations of anti-Semitism in either post.

Sorry, but once again I’m reminded of bitter white guys screaming that they can’t criticize Obama without being accused of being a racist.

48

Well, then you need to look harder, or think harder.

Of course they are accusations of anti-semitism. They are veiled to be sure (althought they are not always, particularly not in great debates) but the inference is always that the driving force behind the criticsm of israel is anti-semitism.

And frankly a lot of those white guys cticizing Obama are racista dn they get justly acused of being racist. The problem is that this has become a crutch for of Obama’s supporters and they call any critic of obama a racist. They don’t call these otherwise reasonable sounding critics racists explicitly but they will say things that have analogues in Israel debates

To Obama critic: “gee you never criticized any of the other presidents about doing this sort of thing. I wonder what it is about Obama that makes you criticize him when you don’t criticize other presidents, gee I wonder?”

This is a veiled accusation of racism.

To Iserael critic: “gee you never criticize other countries that have done simialr things, I wonder what it is about Israel that makes you criticize Israel when you don’t criticize these other nations, gee I wonder?”

This is a veiled accusation of anti-semitism.

Of course its not always veiled. Folks like Brazil 84 have called it anti-semitism to critiize Israel and there are constant questions about the motive behind criticisms of israel in a “gee i wonder what it is about Israel that makes them criticize it so” sort of way.

49

As one of the poster that is frequently the target of these veiled accusations, the accusations come from a small handful of posters. Their goal seems to be to discredit Israel’s critics and shout them down or cow them.

50

Personally, I’m an anti-Semite in the Israel threads and an Islamophobe in the Islam threads.

51

Uhm, no. You need to quote the exact words you are referring to.

52

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17617566&postcount=46

The links are here. click on the words “here” in the post and it will send you to two posts that are examples of how veiled accusations of anti-semitism are made.

53

You need to quote the words and tell us why you think they are charges of antisemitism. I read both posts, and I’m not seeing it, and the word “anti-Semite or antisemitism” doesn’t appear in either one. We’re not mind-readers.

Frankly, the fact that you are resisting quoting the exact words leads me to believe your claims are not as rock solid as you make them out to be.

54

I see no accusations of anti-Semitism in either post.

What both posters appear to be doing, is claiming that their opponents are biased on the issue of Israel/Palestine. By “biased” I would mean “take a predictable position on any issue, and do not change it when confronted by contrary facts” as opposed to merely “tend to sympathize with one side or the other”. Such accusations tend to come after snarky exchanges.

For example, from your second link:

Which was a response to:

Thing is, it is no secret that some people are biased - on either side. There are many, many reasons why someone would be biased one way or the other - of which, only one possibility is actual ethnic hatreds (directed either way).

An accusation of “bias” is not the same as an accusation of “anti-Semitism”, but it is often confused for one - particularly by folks seeking offence. This now closed thread contains a perfect example.

55

How do you make rock solid cases for innnuendo and veiled accusations?

When someone criticzes Obama and they are met with comments like “gee you didn’t seem to have a problem with this sort of thing under Bush or even Clinton, I wonder what it is about Obama that makes him different. I wonder why. Hmmmm”

They don’t say the word racist once but they are clearly implying racism is a factor.

Do you agree?

56

No, I don’t agree. But you haven’t made your case. All you did was post a link and say “See!” Maybe if you explained what you were talking about, rather than assuming everyone was going to automatically agree with you, some people might actually agree with you.

57

Yes, that certainly can be a case of an implied accusation of racism.

The posts linked above, by contrast, do not appear to be such. They appear, on a reasonable reading, to be accusations of bias.

The extra step would be to show that the accuser intended it to be understood that the “bias” was caused by “hatred of Jews” (and not, say, ‘left-wing Euro-ness’ or ‘Misplaced anti-colonialism’ or whatever). This is what you are being challenged on.

58

What is that - accusing someone of thinking there might be too many Jews anywhere, but especially Israel - if not an accusation of antisemitism?

59

This one, in contrast to the others, certainly appears to be such an accusation.

Where did it come from?

60

I can’t make hide nor hair of WHAT that means. Maybe it’s meaning is buried in the context of a longer running exchange between those guys.