# Are there any texts about Jesus during his life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341 "2008-10-17T04:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/21 "2008-10-17T13:16:34Z")
Some words on the subject from [The Perfect Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/518/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/22 "2008-10-17T13:22:14Z")
So, was his virgin birth kept a secret? Does the bible say when Jesus first became aware he was the son of god? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/23 "2008-10-17T13:39:03Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] There’s also no consensus among historians if Jesus was ever a real person or not… [/QUOTE] > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > No, the existence of Jesus is accepted by pretty much all historians: > > [Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus) Exactly right. People like G.A. Wells who dispute the historicity of Jesus are [not historians](http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html). Rather, their expertise is in fields such as German and mathematics, not history. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/24 "2008-10-17T13:44:27Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > With all due respect, this sounds like fundamentalist propoganda to me. Most non-Christians I know are indifferent to the story of Resurrection, they don’t care if it’s real or not. But if you DID know that the Resurrection occurred, then you are unlikely to remain indifferent. That’s the distinction that you’re missing. I’m not claiming that everyone would have cared if he rose from the dead or not. However, if someone DID know that he rose from the dead, then only the most apathetic of people would respond with complete indifference. They would respond either positively nor negatively. Besides, people who are indifferent are not likely to write historical accounts. That’s another important distinction. One might say that some Palestinians didn’t care to find out if Jesus rose from the dead or not. However, if he did rise from the dead, then only the people who cared one way or another would be likely to write about it. Note that I’m not making an argument for the Resurrection in this case. That has been covered in other threads. Rather, my point is that it’s misguided to insist on completely impartial accounts when it comes to ancient events, and especially claims of the miraculous. By their very nature, they lend themselves to responses that are either positive, negative, or some combination thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/25 "2008-10-17T14:06:24Z")
The problem with the miraculous claims about Jesus (aside from the fact that miracles are _prima facie_ impossibilities) is that there aren’t any eyewitness claims for any of them, including the Resurrection. For that matter, there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus at all. Nothing written about Jesus was written by anyone who ever met him. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/26 "2008-10-17T14:44:21Z")
Here’s a modern text by the prophet John Prine: [Jesus: The Missing Years](http://www.jpshrine.org/lyrics/songs/mymy.html) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/27 "2008-10-17T14:50:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For that matter, there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus at all. Nothing written about Jesus was written by anyone who ever met him. It’s too bad Jesus lived back before blogging became popular. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/28 "2008-10-17T14:58:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For that matter, there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus at all. Nothing written about Jesus was written by anyone who ever met him. Herodotus never met Cyrus, Darius or Xerxes. Guess that means there’s no proof they ever existed, either. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/29 "2008-10-17T15:07:28Z")
Some time ago I heard an historian talking on the radio about how historians work - original sources, comparing material from various sources etc. In passing, talking about the difficulty of finding contemporary accounts, he happened to mention that, “for instance, there is far better evidence, closer to his lifetime, that Jesus existed than there is that Julius Caesar existed. However people accept as fact that Caesar was real and many doubt that Jesus was.” ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/30 "2008-10-17T15:09:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The problem with the miraculous claims about Jesus (aside from the fact that miracles are _prima facie_ impossibilities) is that there aren’t any eyewitness claims for any of them, including the Resurrection. Again, an oversimplification. Matthew and John would have been eyewitnesses, for example, and they are considered the traditional authors of the gospels that bore their names. More liberal scholars admittedly reject this view, but it is by no means the consensus opinion. Additionally, you have 1 Cor 15, in which Paul claims to have met the resurrected Christ, and the authorship of that book is not disputed. As for the view that miracles are “prima facie” impossibilities, that’s simply incorrect. One might not be willing to accept the possibility of miracles, but this does not make them _prima facie_ impossible. Second, no sensible historian would ever claim that only eyewitness accounts are considered reliable. To use an example that I cited in previous discussions, nobody would claim that Josephus witnessed everything that he recorded, and yet he is considered to be a credible historian. Similarly, virtually everything we know about the life of Alexander the Great was recorded by Arrian and Plutarch. The lived centuries after Alexander, and yet they are deemed to be reliable sources. The bottom line is that eyewitness testimony is preferred, but no sensible student of ancient history would insist that only eyewitness accounts are acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/31 "2008-10-17T16:22:08Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > …he happened to mention that, “for instance, there is far better evidence, closer to his lifetime, that Jesus existed than there is that Julius Caesar existed. However people accept as fact that Caesar was real and many doubt that Jesus was.” **don’t ask** - the quickest of all Googles pretty clearly reveals this position to be baseless. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/32 "2008-10-17T16:36:24Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > Shortly, no. > > There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life. The only non-Christian source that talks about Jesus is Josephus and the authenticity of the passage is questioned. In any event, he was writing some 60 years after Jesus died. > > [Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus) There are two passages in different "books’ of Josephus. One is very doubtful (at least as currently worded, it seems likely that there was _some_ mention which was piously edited lated), the other seems legit. "The other reference in the works of Josephus often cited to support the historicity of Jesus is also in the Antiquities, in the first paragraph of book 20, chapter 9. It concerns the execution of a man whom traditional scholarship identifies as James the Just. “ And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. …Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. …[33] ” The above quotation from the Antiquities is considered authentic in its entirety by almost all scholars.[34] Unlike the Testimonium, the passage was mentioned in several places by Origen." The Roman historian Tacitus also has a later offhand mention of Christ. “…Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,…” There are a few other obscure and offhand mentions. The evidence for a real Historical Jesus is about as good as the evidence for a real historical Socrates. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/33 "2008-10-17T16:40:37Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Matthew and John would have been eyewitnesses, for example, and they are considered the traditional authors of the gospels that bore their names. More liberal scholars admittedly reject this view, but it is by no means the consensus opinion. Uhm, Yes, yes it is the mainstream SCHOLARLY view point. As you briefly mentioned, the traditional BELIEF is that they were penned by those authors, but all evidence shows this to not be the case. Those who claim that they are are not basing their view on scholarly study of the texts and the history, but rather faith. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/34 "2008-10-17T16:43:44Z")
Is it possible that any of these other historical references are about another “king of the jews” and not the person(s) on which the new testament is based? In other words was “Cristos” a popular moniker back them (or was jesus a popular name?) for all of these new age prophets popping out in that part of the world at around that same time? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/35 "2008-10-17T16:48:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Herodotus never met Cyrus, Darius or Xerxes. Guess that means there’s no proof they ever existed, either. That’s just stupid. We have statues, paintings and thousands of letters, decrees, records and histories that wrote about them _during their lifetimes_. Other people and kings _wrote to them_. Jesus on the other hand could easily be the result of a flim-flam man rolling into town and spinning a good yarn. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/36 "2008-10-17T16:58:33Z")
I recall a history prof way back in college telling us that nothing is known about Jesus for about 20 years before he pops up again, and that there was a Buddhist monastery in the area, sort of a far outpost. Apparently there was some serious scholarly speculation that assuming Jesus actually existed, he could have been there all those years and been influenced by Buddhist philosophy. I’ve never read or heard of this since then. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/37 "2008-10-17T17:05:42Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Uhm, Yes, yes it is the mainstream SCHOLARLY view point. As you briefly mentioned, the traditional BELIEF is that they were penned by those authors, but all evidence shows this to not be the case. Those who claim that they are are not basing their view on scholarly study of the texts and the history, but rather faith. What evidence is there that shows the Gospels were not penned, or at least not compiled from earlier sources that were penned by Matthew & John? None. There is no hard evidence either way. And it’s not quite “faith” but reliance in Church Tradition (which certainly isn’t hard fact but it’s not blind faith either.) Re the Gospels’ authorship. If Matthew, Mark, Luke & John DIDN’T write the Gospels, why did the Church attribute them to these men? OK, John makes sense. He’s consistently named as one of the three main disciples. But why is Mark attributed to Mark (said to be acting as Peter’s scribe) and not to Peter himself? Why is Matthew not attributed to, let’s say, James bar-Zebedee, another of the main three? Why isn’t Luke attributed instead to Paul, who seems to be Luke’s main contact among the Apostles? Were the Gospels written by these four men in their final form? I don’t know. But I see no reason not to believe they could have been compiled from accounts started by each of the four men. Another thing- if the Church authorities doctored the Gospels to say what they wanted, why didn’t they also smooth out all the inconsistencies & paradoxes & “contradictions”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/38 "2008-10-17T17:36:49Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Another thing- if the Church authorities doctored the Gospels to say what they wanted, why didn’t they also smooth out all the inconsistencies & paradoxes & “contradictions”? Because religious people, like other people, are often stupid, stubborn, and prone to ignore logical fallacies in what they like? I notice that you put quotes around contradictions. Does this mean that you think there are no real contradictions in the bible? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/39 "2008-10-17T17:40:36Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Uhm, Yes, yes it is the mainstream SCHOLARLY view point. As you briefly mentioned, the traditional BELIEF… As **FriarTed** pointed out, that’s an overstatement. The reality is that you’ll find a large number of scholars on both sides of that issue. Naturally, the more conservative scholars lean toward the traditional authorship, whereas the liberal scholars tend to argue otherwise. This goes far beyond mere “belief.” Besides which, even if one does reject the traditional authorship of the Gospels, you still have eyewitness testimony from Paul, as recorded in an epistle which even the most liberal of scholars accept to be genuinely Pauline. And, as I’ve emphasized at great length, eyewitness testimony is simply not necessary when evaluating claims of ancient history. It’s nice to have, but it’s simply not a requirement for scholarship. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/40 "2008-10-17T17:45:58Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Again, an oversimplification. Matthew and John would have been eyewitnesses, for example, and they are considered the traditional authors of the gospels that bore their names. More liberal scholars admittedly reject this view, but it is by no means the consensus opinion. In point of fact, it is the overwhelming consensus opinion that the traditional authorships ascribed to the writers of the Gospels are spurious. These 2nd Century traditions for which the evidence, both internal and external ranges from dubious to provably false. Matthew, in particular, is demonstrably not an eyewitness based on the fact that the book is copied from at least two other secondary sources. I could go into a lot more detail on this, but suffice it to say it is factually incorrect to say that there is any consensus at all among historians that anything written about Jesus is from a primary source. That is a tradition accepted on faith, not on evidence. > [@](#): > > Additionally, you have 1 Cor 15, in which Paul claims to have met the resurrected Christ, and the authorship of that book is not disputed. I don’t think many people would argue with the fact that Paul believed he had visionary experiences of Jesus, but so what? That’s not the same as actually meeting or knowing the guy. > [@](#): > > As for the view that miracles are “prima facie” impossibilities, that’s simply incorrect. One might not be willing to accept the possibility of miracles, but this does not make them _prima facie_ impossible. Of course it does. Miracles _by definition_ are suspensions or violations of physical laws. They are _by definition_ physically impossible. If it’s not physically impossible, it’s not a miracle. > [@](#): > > Second, no sensible historian would ever claim that only eyewitness accounts are considered reliable. To use an example that I cited in previous discussions, nobody would claim that Josephus witnessed everything that he recorded, and yet he is considered to be a credible historian. Similarly, virtually everything we know about the life of Alexander the Great was recorded by Arrian and Plutarch. The lived centuries after Alexander, and yet they are deemed to be reliable sources. Historians most definitely do NOT accept everything ancient historians say as fact, but do what they can to corroborate it with other written and archaeological evidence. One thing that is NEVER accepted, even with eyewitness accounts, are supernatural or miraculous claims, not even from Josephus. > [@](#): > > The bottom line is that eyewitness testimony is preferred, but no sensible student of ancient history would insist that only eyewitness accounts are acceptable. When it comes to supernatural claims, not even eyewitness accounts are regarded as reliable. The impossible is assumed to be impossible until proven otherwise. In no other book but the Bible would anyone even TRY to argue that the supernatural claims should be taken seriously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341.md?page=3)