# Are there any texts about Jesus during his life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341 "2008-10-17T04:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/41 "2008-10-17T17:56:02Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > As **FriarTed** pointed out, that’s an overstatement. The reality is that you’ll find a large number of scholars on both sides of that issue. This is simply not true. This alleged categories of “conservative” and “liberal” scholars does not exist. Those qualifications don’t mean anything. There is scientific scholarship and there is religious belief. While there are many legitimate scholars who operate from a position of faith, they still understand and distinguish between what they can prove and what they can’t prove. There is no good evidence that anything in the NT was written by an eyewitness og Jesus, and there is abundant evidence that they were not. The writers of Matthew and John do not even _claim_ to be eyewitnesses, and the cases against those hypotheses are overwhelming. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/42 "2008-10-17T18:06:19Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Uhm, Yes, yes it is the mainstream SCHOLARLY view point. As you briefly mentioned, the traditional BELIEF is that they were penned by those authors, but all evidence shows this to not be the case. Those who claim that they are are not basing their view on scholarly study of the texts and the history, but rather faith. According to Oxford, the current consensus is that John was most likely dictated by that Apostle to his disciples in John’s advanced years, and was then edited, perhaps several times. It seems clear that the initial author witnessed most of what he talks about. wiki "_Raymond E. Brown, a biblical scholar who specialized in studying the Johannine community, summarizes a prevalent theory regarding the development of this gospel.[22] He identifies three layers of text in the Fourth Gospel (a situation that is paralleled by the synoptic gospels): 1) an initial version Brown considers based on personal experience of Jesus; 2) a structured literary creation by the evangelist which draws upon additional sources; and 3) the edited version that readers know today (Brown 1979)._ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/43 "2008-10-17T18:09:48Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > What evidence is there that shows the Gospels were not penned, or at least not compiled from earlier sources that were penned by Matthew & John? None. The evidence aginst the hypothetical authors is abundant and overwhelming, but you’re also forgetting who’s got the burden of proof here. Thosse authrs do not themselves claim to be Matthew and John, so what is your basis for attributing those names. > [@](#): > > There is no hard evidence either way. This is not true. There is very hard evidence against both of those traditions and none in favor. I can go into excruciating detail if you wish. > [@](#): > > Re the Gospels’ authorship. If Matthew, Mark, Luke & John DIDN’T write the Gospels, why did the Church attribute them to these men? They had to attribute them to somebody to give them better authority. > [@](#): > > OK, John makes sense. He’s consistently named as one of the three main disciples. But why is Mark attributed to Mark (said to be acting as Peter’s scribe) and not to Peter himself?Why is Matthew not attributed to, let’s say, James bar-Zebedee, another of the main three? The Mark and Matthew traditions come from claims made by Papias that those two people had written Gospels. The books Papias describes, though, are clearly not the Canonical Gospels. Those names were just seized on by people anxious to attach authors to works of unknown provenance. > [@](#): > > Why isn’t Luke attributed instead to Paul, who seems to be Luke’s main contact among the Apostles? It’s highly unlikely that the author of Luke knew Paul, but it wouldn’t make sense to attribute his Gospel to Paul since Paul had been dead at least 30 years before it was written. > [@](#): > > Were the Gospels written by these four men in their final form? I don’t know. But I see no reason not to believe they could have been compiled from accounts started by each of the four men. Now THIS is a hypothesis that historians take seriously, especially with regards to the Q material, to a hypothetical “Ur-Mark” and to a possible apostolic kernel in John. > [@](#): > > Another thing- if the Church authorities doctored the Gospels to say what they wanted, why didn’t they also smooth out all the inconsistencies & paradoxes & “contradictions”? Who says church authorities “doctored” anything? Any revisions and developments in the Gospels are thought to have come about independently, and generally with pious intention, long before thet ever became canon. I’m not aware of any scholarly belief in a church conspiracy to author the Gospels. The contradictions are there because the authors and revisors were not aware of the other authors and revisiors. Matthew and Luke, for instance, both used Matk and Q as sources, but wherever they don’t have a common source, they wildly diverge, hence two completely different birth and resurrection narratives. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/44 "2008-10-17T18:14:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > According to Oxford, the current consensus is that John was most likely dictated by that Apostle to his disciples in John’s advanced years, and was then edited, perhaps several times. It seems clear that the initial author witnessed most of what he talks about. This is absolutely not a current consensus, especially the last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/45 "2008-10-17T18:58:43Z")
Well, wiki sez "Authorship ._Most modern experts conclude the author to be an unknown non-eyewitness.[14] Tradition ascribes the book the John the Evangelist, a disciple of Christ._ And I refer you to my original cite "Raymond E. Brown, a biblical scholar who specialized in studying the Johannine community, summarizes a prevalent theory regarding the development of this gospel.[22] He identifies three layers of text in the Fourth Gospel (a situation that is paralleled by the synoptic gospels): _1) an initial version Brown considers based on personal experience of Jesus; …"_ Then there’s "The resulting revolution in Johannine scholarship was termed the new look by John A. T. Robinson, who coined the phrase in 1957 at Oxford. According to Robinson, this new information rendered the question of authorship a relative one. _He considered a group of disciples around the aging John the Apostle who wrote down his memories_, mixing them with theological speculation, a model that had been proposed as far back as Renan’s Vie de Jésus ("Life of Jesus “, 1863).” _italics mine_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/46 "2008-10-17T19:28:45Z")
you’re citing 50 year old scholarship. The wiki cite says exactly what I said. Ray Brown was a well-respected scholar, but he was also a Catholic priest who tended to guard tradition as much as possible (though the real, hardcore traditionalists thought he was way too “liberal”). As I said before, the hypothesis that the 4th Gospel might have been based on a core apostolic recollection istaken seriously, but it’s _not_ true that “most” of it is taken as authentic recollection, especially not the nature miracles or the Resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Peg\_Leg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/90db22/32.png) [@Peg\_Leg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peg_Leg)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/47 "2008-10-17T19:58:28Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > In addition, you have other non-Christian sources, such as Tacitus and **Pliny the Elder** (to name the two most famous ones). They were admittedly dated later than Josephus, but they are also ancient sources that mention Jesus. Could you please direct me to a place in Pliny’s writings that mentions Jesus? I’ve only read translated excerpts dealing with magic and healing from his _Natural Histories_, so I’m not wholly familiar with him. But this is a claim I’ve never heard before, and given that he was a first century scholar it seems to me that anything he said regarding Jesus would be as well known as Josephus. Googling, I can’t find anything relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/48 "2008-10-17T20:31:31Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Some time ago I heard an historian talking on the radio about how historians work - original sources, comparing material from various sources etc. In passing, talking about the difficulty of finding contemporary accounts, he happened to mention that, “for instance, there is far better evidence, closer to his lifetime, that Jesus existed than there is that Julius Caesar existed. However people accept as fact that Caesar was real and many doubt that Jesus was.” That’s a pretty stupid thing to say. For one thing, Caesar _wrote a book_ that I’ve never heard anybody attribute to anything else. There is tons of historical evidence for Caesar. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/49 "2008-10-17T20:59:11Z")
> [@Peg\_Leg](#): > > Could you please direct me to a place in Pliny’s writings that mentions Jesus? I’ve only read translated excerpts dealing with magic and healing from his _Natural Histories_, so I’m not wholly familiar with him. But this is a claim I’ve never heard before, and given that he was a first century scholar it seems to me that anything he said regarding Jesus would be as well known as Josephus. Googling, I can’t find anything relevant. wiki " \*Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped “Christus”. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.\*[57] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/50 "2008-10-17T21:03:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Even if Pilate _had_ made a practice of recording crucifixions (something we have no evidence that he did), those records would have been destroyed when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE. Just to nitpick, but wasn’t the capital of Roman Judea Caesarea? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/51 "2008-10-17T21:20:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > you’re citing 50 year old scholarship. . As opposed to no cites at all?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/52 "2008-10-17T21:21:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just to nitpick, but wasn’t the capital of Roman Judea Caesarea? Certainly Pilate spent most of his time there, although he traveled throughout his territory, of course. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/53 "2008-10-17T22:39:24Z")
> [@Peg\_Leg](#): > > Could you please direct me to a place in Pliny’s writings that mentions Jesus? I’ve only read translated excerpts dealing with magic and healing from his _Natural Histories_, so I’m not wholly familiar with him. But this is a claim I’ve never heard before, and given that he was a first century scholar it seems to me that anything he said regarding Jesus would be as well known as Josephus. Googling, I can’t find anything relevant. **DrDeth** has already pointed you to the Epistles of Pliny the Younger. I’d just like to add that the Natural Histories you refer to were written by his uncle, Pliny the Elder, who died while investigating the eruption of Vesuvius. BTW the complete letter that **DrDeth** quotes from is online [here](http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~tomshoemaker/handouts/pliny.html), as is the response of the Emperor Trajan. This wiki on the [Historicity of Christ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus) has a useful list of early references. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/54 "2008-10-18T01:16:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For that matter, there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus at all. Nothing written about Jesus was written by anyone who ever met him. What about the first and second letters of Peter? ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/55 "2008-10-18T01:23:46Z")
Ack! Too late to edit. I was gonna add a link to [this Straight Dope column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1988/who-wrote-the-bible-part-4), which says “It’s always been assumed the first and second letters of Peter were in fact written by Saint Peter. No real objection to that belief has been raised until rather recently, largely because few early church fathers quoted it as they did other canonically accepted books.” ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/56 "2008-10-18T01:51:26Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > Ack! Too late to edit. I was gonna add a link to [this Straight Dope column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1988/who-wrote-the-bible-part-4), which says “It’s always been assumed the first and second letters of Peter were in fact written by Saint Peter. No real objection to that belief has been raised until rather recently, largely because few early church fathers quoted it as they did other canonically accepted books.” Wiki, once again, shows that they are not scholarly thought to be penned by Peter. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/57 "2008-10-18T02:23:18Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > **DrDeth** has already pointed you to the Epistles of Pliny the Younger. I’d just like to add that the Natural Histories you refer to were written by his uncle, Pliny the Elder, who died while investigating the eruption of Vesuvius. I’ll take the blame for that. I mentioned Pliny the Elder earlier, when I meant to mention his son instead. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/58 "2008-10-18T02:32:34Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Wiki, once again, shows that they are not scholarly thought to be penned by Peter. Again, an oversimplification. Contrary to what **Diogenes** always says, there is a wide range of scholarly views with regard to the authorship of the New Testament documents. [F.F. Bruce](http://www.shef.ac.uk/bibs/DJACcurrres/Bruce.html), for example, is a well-known scholar who argues strenuously for the traditional authorship of most, if not all, of the New Testament documents. And contrary to **Dio** ’s claim that there are no categories of “conservative” and “liberal” scholars, this distinction is both well known and well established. (Consider the [Wikipedia entry on the Gospel of John](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Date), for example, which openly acknowledges both liberal and conservative scholars.) Authorship disputes do tend to get long and miry. It is precisely for this reason (and because most laypeople are uninformed about the criteria of historicity), that I emphasize Paul’s testimony in [1 Corinthians 15](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Ancient_Creeds), since even liberal scholars attribute this book to Paul himself. This testimony is appended to a piece of text which is widely acknowledged to have been an ancient creed, based on its language and structure, and which predates the epistle itself. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/59 "2008-10-18T02:46:14Z")
BTW, I have just checked the Wikipedia entries on Peter’s epistles. As I suspected, they don’t actually say that they are “not scholarly thought to be penned by Peter.” Rather, the entry on 1 Peter discusses “critical scholars,” but makes no claims about the general scholarly opinion on its authorship. With regard to 2 Peter, Wikipedia does say that most scholars adopt a non-traditional view nowadays, but it also discusses the viewpoint of Ben Witherington III (a rather famous living scholar) and others, who do accept Peter’s authorship of this book. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/60 "2008-10-18T02:46:54Z")
I don’t dispute the authorship of Corinthians, but it’s meaningless since Paul never met Jesus. The epistles of Peter are pseudoepigraphical. The 2nd is particularly late. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341.md?page=4)