# Are there any texts about Jesus during his life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341 "2008-10-17T04:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/81 "2008-10-19T00:58:55Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Speaking only for myself, if Jesus really was the Son of God, and everything in the Bible is 100% true, I would not accept him as my Savior. :dubious: If everything in the Bible was 100% true, and God created you, and offered you eternal happiness, you would say “Sorry, I’d rather burn for all eternity”?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/82 "2008-10-19T01:09:42Z")
> [@True Blue Jack](#): > > (My emphasis added.) :dubious: > > Sighhhhh… > > Ted, when Matthew has Jesus born 4 BC or earlier, while Luke has him born 6 AD… > : Neither uses either date. Matthew sez “In the days of Herod the King” (who died in 4BC). Luke used Cyrenius as Governor of Syria, but he had two terms- 6-4BC and 6-9AD. Thus 4 or 5 BC works. Now we do know there was a Census during Cyrenius 2nd term according to Josephus, however there could have been one earlier also, carried out by order of Herod. Of course, there’s no evidence of it, but if it had been ordered by Herod, the Jews would not have had the issues with a Census following Jewish customs and laws, so it might not have been notable. John was also a very old man when/if he dictated his Gospel, his memory wasnl;t likely all that sharp for details. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/83 "2008-10-19T01:13:15Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > At any rate, the NT contains vitually no first-hand, first-person mention of encounters with Jesus (“So then Jesus says to me, he says…”): nowhere do any of the writers claim to have seen Jesus in person.: 1 Peter 5:1 _“The elders which are among you I exhort, I who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the story that shall be revealed.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/84 "2008-10-19T01:35:14Z")
> [@Dr Deth](#): > > 1 Peter 5:1: The elders which are among you I exhort, I who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ I’m not an expert on Biblical Greek, but as I understand it, Greek “martus” or “witness” in Christian writings of this period generally did not mean “eyewitness”, but rather a Christian believer, one who “bore witness” to the claims of the Christian faith, even at the cost of oppression or persecution. So this passage doesn’t necessarily constitute a claim on the part of its author that he actually saw, with his own two eyes, in historical time, the actual physical crucifixion of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/85 "2008-10-19T02:22:53Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > So, anyone who writes about Jesus, God, Mary, Satan, ghosts, or aliens appeared and spoke to them is proof that such beings existed? **NO.** If I had claimed that Paul’s encounter automatically proved the existence of Jesus, then your objection would be relevant. I made no such claim, though; rather, I was addressing the specific claim that there are no eyewitness accounts of anyone meeting Jesus in the New Testament. I did not claim that this automatically proved his existence; quite the contrary, I emphasized that the implications of his account are a matter of further philosophical inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/86 "2008-10-19T02:25:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why do religionists always do this? The only valid scientific presumption is to assume that the impossible is impossible until proven otherwise. Again, no. First, your language (“assume that the impossible is impossible”) is an obvious example of circular reasoning. Surely I need not explain why. Second, the logical approach is to assume that something _might_ be possible in the absence of compelling reason to believe that it is not. Note that I say “compelling reason.” I’m not about to demand proof, for only a fool will claim that only proven things are worth believing. Your argument amounts to saying “We must assume that miracles are impossible because they are impossible.” Those are words of emphatic declaration, not sound logic. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/87 "2008-10-19T02:47:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Neither uses either date. Matthew sez “In the days of Herod the King” (who died in 4BC). Luke used Cyrenius as Governor of Syria, but he had two terms- 6-4BC and 6-9AD. Thus 4 or 5 BC works. This is not only utterly false, but also irrelevant. First, there isn’t the slightest evidence that Quirinius was ever Governor of Syria before 6 CE, secondly, even if he had been (which he wasn’t, and I assure you, you can’t back up that assertion), it would be irrelevant because Judea did not get annexed as part of the Province of Syria until 6 CE. Prior to that time, Judea was not subject to taxes or censuses. > [@](#): > > Now we do know there was a Census during Cyrenius 2nd term according to Josephusp There isn’t the slightest evidence that Quirinius had more than one term, and in fact, it was the practice at the time NOT to give the same Governor more than one term of the same Province. > [@](#): > > however there could have been one earlier also, carried out by order of Herod. Of course, there’s no evidence of it, but if it had been ordered by Herod, the Jews would not have had the issues with a Census following Jewish customs and laws, so it might not have been notable. This is not true either. It would have been HUGE deal. They didn’t like censuses conducted by _[anybody_. Moreover, it’s highly implausible that Herod would have tried since he had no _reason_. His tax system did not require a head count, he collected tributes by territory and didn’t care how many people were in it. A census would not only have been both expensive and unpopular but without question would have been recorded by Josephus, who was a native Galilean. Even if we accept this tortured, reaching hypothesis as plausible, Luke would still be wrong since he clearly stated it was a ROMAN census conducted under the authority of both Augustus and Quirinius. Judea did not come under direct Roman rule until 6 CE. The annexation of Judea as part of the Syrian Province was the _reason_ for the Quirinian census. The contradiction between Matthew and Luke on the year of Jesus, birth is one of the clearest and intractable contradictions in the NT. This piece by historian, Richard Carrier goes into great detail and debunks every conceivable apologetic attempt to reconcile, including the canard that Quirinius served two terms as well as the notion that maybe Herod did it. Carrier is admittedly an atheist, but everything is thoroughly sourced and cited. > [@](#): > > John was also a very old man when/if he dictated his Gospel, his memory wasnl;t likely all that sharp for details. The Gospel of John says nothing about Jesus’ birth (except to arguably imply that he was born in Nazareth). What does John have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/88 "2008-10-19T02:52:55Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Again, no. > > First, your language (“assume that the impossible is impossible”) is an obvious example of circular reasoning. Surely I need not explain why. > > Second, the logical approach is to assume that something _might_ be possible in the absence of compelling reason to believe that it is not. Note that I say “compelling reason.” I’m not about to demand proof, for only a fool will claim that only proven things are worth believing. > > Your argument amounts to saying “We must assume that miracles are impossible because they are impossible.” Those are words of emphatic declaration, not sound logic. Once more, anything which would violate the laws of physics is physically “impossible” by definition. To put things a different way, one must presume that the laws of physics have not been violated until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/89 "2008-10-19T03:08:23Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I was addressing the specific claim that there are no eyewitness accounts of anyone meeting Jesus in the New Testament. But you were unable to provide a counterexample except by distorting the meanings of the words “eyewitness” and “meeting” from their commonly understood senses as used when writing history. The discipline of history is about reconstructing and analyzing realistic narratives of past events. The conditions on “realistic” include “in accordance with the laws of nature”. I have no objection to somebody writing theological doctrine on the assumption that Paul’s claim is evidence that he did literally and truly have an actual experience of encountering a divinely resurrected and embodied Jesus, but that wouldn’t be history. > [@JThunder](#): > > Second, the logical approach is to assume that something might be possible in the absence of compelling reason to believe that it is not. History, like science, can certainly allow that supernatural phenomena **might** be possible, but cannot base any of its own deductions on that possibility. History and science both operate with strictly materialist views of reality which exclude the supernatural _a priori_. Historical narrative rejects the claims that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, that Rama (if he existed as a historical person) had an alliance with a kingdom of talking monkeys with supernatural powers, that Muhammad conversed with the Angel Gabriel, and a whole host of similar miraculous assertions. Miracles, being supernatural and thus in conflict with realistic assumptions about the types of events that can happen in the world, are excluded from history, as they are from science. That certainly doesn’t mean that miracles can’t actually be true. It just means that history is the wrong place to look for acknowledgement of their truth. History and science wisely limit their worldviews to a set of assumptions that’s consistent with the laws of nature. If that means that historical narratives might exclude some miraculous event that in fact did actually happen, well, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/90 "2008-10-19T13:21:19Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > As you briefly mentioned, the traditional BELIEF is that they were penned by those authors [Jesus’ disciples], but all evidence shows this to not be the case. Those who claim that they are are not basing their view on scholarly study of the texts and the history, but rather faith. Or, as [Cecil says:](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1988/who-wrote-the-bible-part-4) > [@](#): > > We just don’t know who wrote most of the New Testament. Tradition has assigned the Gospels and most of the Epistles to certain authors, all of whom were important figures in Jesus’ life or the early days of the faith. It was important for the early church to believe the authors wrote the works attributed to them, since their eminence lent the writings authority. But since we don’t have the original signatures, none can be verified except through textual clues. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/91 "2008-10-19T17:32:23Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Or, as [Cecil says:](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1988/who-wrote-the-bible-part-4) Nitpick: To give credit where credit is due, that column isn’t by Cecil. It’s a Staff Report by **CK Dexter Haven** and **Eutychus** (with input from **cmkeller** and **tomndebb** ). (See second-to-last paragraph [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1989/who-wrote-the-bible-part-5).) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/92 "2008-10-20T02:19:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Nitpick: To give credit where credit is due, that column isn’t by Cecil. It’s a Staff Report by **CK Dexter Haven** and **Eutychus** (with input from **cmkeller** and **tomndebb** ). (See second-to-last paragraph [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1989/who-wrote-the-bible-part-5).) You’re right, of course, and I recall when those excellent essays were written and by whom. But it looks like the separation between Staff Reports and Cecil Pontificates has grown less, as both are now published on the web under the same headline and sideline banners. There’s no doubt that Cecil is endorsing all. We now return to your regularly scheduled program. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/93 "2008-10-21T23:41:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is not only utterly false, but also irrelevant. First, there isn’t the slightest evidence that Quirinius was ever Governor of Syria before 6 CE, secondly, even if he had been (which he wasn’t, and I assure you, you can’t back up that assertion), it would be irrelevant because Judea did not get annexed as part of the Province of Syria until 6 CE. Prior to that time, Judea was not subject to taxes or censuses. > … The contradiction between Matthew and Luke on the year of Jesus, birth is one of the clearest and intractable contradictions in the NT. > > This piece by historian, Richard Carrier goes into great detail and debunks every conceivable apologetic attempt to reconcile, including the canard that Quirinius served two terms as well as the notion that maybe Herod did it. I had read the link before; thank you for bringing it up again. I’ve made a note of it. One can only hope that this will lay the matter to rest. But I doubt it. ☹ - “Jack” ---
**Author:** ![PopeJewish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@PopeJewish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PopeJewish)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/94 "2008-10-22T06:05:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Having a vision…actually, let’s call a spade a spade, having a _hallucination_ of a dead person you never met is not the same as actually meeting that person. > > The difference is that a vision bespeaks psychosis, while seeing shapes is pretty much harmless self-delusion and a normal inclination for the brain to look for familiarity and patterns in random shapes. Just to nitpick a little. Calling it “psychosis” is going a little far. You’re forgetting one of the most important factors surrounding many visions in the old world: Ergot Ergot is a mold that grows on bread and is quite hallucinogenic ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/95 "2008-10-22T17:05:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This piece by historian, Richard Carrier goes into great detail and debunks every conceivable apologetic attempt to reconcile, including the canard that Quirinius served two terms as well as the notion that maybe Herod did it. I think this link might work a lot better (I amputated an “h”): > **[Richard Carrier Quirinius » Internet Infidels](https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-quirinius/)** ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/96 "2008-12-28T16:28:16Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I understand that you’re looking for unbiased sources, but as I mentioned earlier, that’s not how historians operate. No historian would dismiss Caesar’s account of the Gallic Wars, for example, even though he is our only source regarding this event. Nor would they summarily dismiss what George Washington wrote on the Revolutionary War simply because it’s biased. > > As a history professor that I interviewed once said (and I paraphrase), “Historians expect that there will always be bias in the ancient accounts. They simply take that into account.” > > Besides, based on what has been recorded about the life of Jesus, it would be difficult for anyone to remain unbiased about him. Most people would either follow him or dismiss him as a loon. In fact, if the Resurrection truly happened, then it would be extremely difficult to remain unbiased. You can’t simply shrug an event like that off. You’d either bow down and worship the man or strive to explain it all away. I think that’s the whole point. There is nothing contemporary. We already know the Romans were pretty anal about record keeping. If Jesus had been the pain in the ass to the local power structure that the Bible made him out to be, Pilate would have documented his execution if for no other reason than to cover his own ass with Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/97 "2008-12-28T16:53:04Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I think that’s the whole point. There is nothing contemporary. We already know the Romans were pretty anal about record keeping. If Jesus had been the pain in the ass to the local power structure that the Bible made him out to be, Pilate would have documented his execution if for no other reason than to cover his own ass with Rome. This Roman record keeping thing is actually overstated, especially as it pertains to the privinces and especially especially as it pertains to Judea. The Emperors didn’t care about the daily administrative details of backwaters like Judea as long as the taxes got paid and there weren’t any revolts. If prefects like Pilate had been expected to document and ship records of everytrial and execution, the Emperor would have been overwhelmed with paperwork (which would have been pointlessly expensive to ship in the first place). Guys like Pilate were mostly left to their own devices. All he had to do was keep the peace and collect the taxes. Even if Pilate had kept records of executions in Judea, they probably would have been destroyed in the first Jewish-Roman War anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341/98 "2008-12-28T20:55:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This Roman record keeping thing is actually overstated, especially as it pertains to the privinces and especially especially as it pertains to Judea. The Emperors didn’t care about the daily administrative details of backwaters like Judea as long as the taxes got paid and there weren’t any revolts. If prefects like Pilate had been expected to document and ship records of everytrial and execution, the Emperor would have been overwhelmed with paperwork (which would have been pointlessly expensive to ship in the first place). Guys like Pilate were mostly left to their own devices. All he had to do was keep the peace and collect the taxes. > > Even if Pilate had kept records of executions in Judea, they probably would have been destroyed in the first Jewish-Roman War anyway. DtC and I actually agree here.😛 If you are going to use “lack of documentation” as evidence, then what you have to show is that we have scads and scads of Roman execution records from the days of Pontius Pilate, but we’re somehow missing Jesus. In actuality, I don’t beleive a single document or order that Pilate signed survived the war and the ages after. We have \*one \*recently discovered monument that mentions Pilate, and then a few histories by Tactitus from later. In other words, from things dating from the actual time of Pilate, we have one badly damaged monument that Pilate put up. No execution writs, etc. What we do know is that later anti-Christian Roman propaganda (_what little there is)_ debunks Jesus as a “mere man”, but there’s no claim Jesus did not exist in the few few centuries. Even there it’s only a few mentions, mind you. Note that DtC and and I don’t differ by a huge gap, either. I agree Matthew, Mark & Luke were not written by one of JC’s Apostles. I think that Matthew and Luke _might_ have been written by a _disciple_ of an Apostle. In other words, the authors did not see any miracles by Jesus themselves- but _maybe_ they _heard about_ these miracles first hand. I (and most experts) think that the Apostle John had some voice in the Gospel by that name. But even so, _John_ deals very little with miracles, was the remberance of a very old man, and was dictated to and edited by that Apostle’s followers, who could well have made some changes after John died. Thus the _Gospel of John_ is not a great cite for a first hand account of miracles, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-texts-about-jesus-during-his-life/468341.md?page=4)