# Are there any thoughts (with no action) that are morally/ethically wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104 "2011-10-09T20:35:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/41 "2011-10-12T07:03:02Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Although it’s not possible to avoid the intrusion of thoughts, it’s definitely possible to choose how much, if at all, one will dwell on and develop a thought. We are somewhat in control of ourselves (including our own thought-lives) are we not? I don’t think so. Some thoughts behave like earworms. I often have unpleasant memories barging in unannounced and mostly unwelcomed. Not triggered by anything, really. Just the old noggin’ going “hey, I noticed you’re not doing much with me right now, so I thought I’d ask whether you’d lived \*this \*one down by now ? Oh. Apparently not. Sorry I mentioned it. Carry on. Oooor you could just dwell on it, I guess. Teehee.” Speaking of which, earworms themselves are essentially recurring thoughts that you can’t seem to shake off, aren’t they ? Another example would be obsessing over trivial details - like the name of that actor who played that role in that film and GOD I know who he is I just can’t remember his name…WIKIIII ! Whelp, I’m sure everyone has some thought patterns along those lines, where you just won’t be able to rest or concentrate until you look it up. Or find the word you’re looking for, or whatever put the stops to your train of thought at the time. Maybe I simply have a bit of OCD though 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![\_Olive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/4af34b/32.png) [@\_Olive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Olive)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/42 "2011-10-12T07:34:19Z")
i don’t believe in the thought police … ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/43 "2011-10-12T07:40:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t think so. Not at all? I know we sometimes have thoughts we can’t shake off, but _by and large_, we’re somewhat in control of the conscious direction of our thoughts, aren’t we? If it were not so, it would be impossible to hold down a job, learn a trade, study _anything_. The freewill issue arises here, along with all the stuff about how our brains are doing stuff we don’t realise, and acting in ways we think they’re not, but we can still do things like deciding to dwell upon something else, busy ourselves with something, distract ourselves with other stimuli, etc. Otherwise, no advice or decision on how to deal with \*anything \*would be of any use. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/44 "2011-10-12T08:54:54Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Not at all? Well, sure, we do have a good dose of control. I’m just saying that thoughts sometimes do just pop up unbidden, and thoughts can be hard to just shake off in spite of one’s best efforts. Which is my take on that whole unwillingly having sinful thoughts thing. Especially when boobies are involved. For once I feel \*\*Qin \*\*didn’t deserve the snark (I mean, besides the concept of sinful thoughts in the first place, but that’s a whole other thang) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/45 "2011-10-12T09:53:48Z")
Absolutely, bad thoughts pop up (I think it’s called the ‘dark passenger’ or some such) - I get quite absurdly dark thoughts intruding upon me at times myself, but what most people do tend to have a choice about is whether we dwell on them, or try to dismiss them and think about something else. Often (but not always) easy - occasionally very hard or impossible. AFAIK, where thoughts are regarded as sinful in a religious context, the provocation or temptation (i.e. the initial, or even repeated intrusion) is not the sin; the sin is wilful engagement and development of the thought. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/46 "2011-10-12T11:13:00Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > As for the idea that thinking ‘‘bad’’ thoughts increases the likelihood of committing ‘‘bad’’ actions, most of the research I’m familiar with refutes that. For people with OCD it’s one of the paramount myths to bust for those who suffer, because they are terrified that their thoughts are predictions of their action. **The more they try to suppress the thought, the more they think it, which then confirms their belief that they are bad and must engage in safety behaviors to prevent themselves from losing control.** A major key to healing is learning to treat thoughts as they are - inconsequential, random, only imbued with the power we give them. This seems to me to reinforce, rather than negate, the point that habitual thoughts\* affect behaviour, especially the bolded part. This is a major part of CBT as well, that learning how to overcome habitual eg anxious thinking leading to anxiety attacks is difficult, and takes time and hard work, because thoughts _do_ become somewhat ingrained and harder to move on from once you’ve been habitually thinking them for a while. \*I agree the distinction between habitual thoughts – thoughts that are dwelled on and engaged with – and ‘accidental’/casual thoughts is an important one ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/47 "2011-10-12T13:20:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No. The only measure for the morality of something that makes any sense to me is the degree to which it harms (or helps) other people. A thought, unacted upon and unexpressed, cannot neither help nor harm any other person, and therefore carries no moral weight. That’s an interesting way of measuring morality but I wonder if it is incomplete. For (a despicable) example, say someone tortures and kills a stray cat which is not anyone’s pet and will not be missed, and does so with no witnesses. No persons other than possibly the perp himself have been harmed. Is this an immoral act? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/48 "2011-10-12T13:24:05Z")
> [@Lubricious\_Integument](#): > > That’s an interesting way of measuring morality but I wonder if it is incomplete. For (a despicable) example, say someone tortures and kills a stray cat which is not anyone’s pet and will not be missed, and does so with no witnesses. No persons other than possibly the perp himself have been harmed. Is this an immoral act? With a few tweaks I’m sure I can “Cat friendly” **Miller** ’s comment. There. “No. The only measure for the morality of something that makes any sense to me is the degree to which it harms (or helps) others. A thought, unacted upon and unexpressed, cannot neither help nor harm anyone, and therefore carries no moral weight.” ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/49 "2011-10-12T13:31:42Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > With a few tweaks I’m sure I can “Cat friendly” **Miller** ’s comment. There. > > “No. The only measure for the morality of something that makes any sense to me is the degree to which it harms (or helps) others. A thought, unacted upon and unexpressed, cannot neither help nor harm anyone, and therefore carries no moral weight.” Is harming something while acting in self defense moral under this measure? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/50 "2011-10-12T14:21:57Z")
> [@Lubricious\_Integument](#): > > Is harming something while acting in self defense moral under this measure? Go with utilitarianism at that point–was your act of self-defense justified? Did it use the minimum necessary force? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/51 "2011-10-12T15:46:35Z")
Yes, if you think this thought: > [@](#): > > This thought is morally/ethically wrong ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/52 "2011-10-12T16:28:46Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Go with utilitarianism at that point–was your act of self-defense justified? Did it use the minimum necessary force? I think justifiable self-defense is a moral action, but I’m not certain that **orcenio** ’s measure of morality is necessarily applicable. Here’s a ridiculous and contrived example. a) I’m out in the back 40 with my child and for some reason I am armed. A vicious-looking dog appears, baring teeth, and taking an aggressive posture. I am convinced we are in danger so in self-defense I shoot the dog. I help my child but harm the dog, and on balance I feel I acted morally. b) Same as a) except it is just me without my child. Here I harm the dog but help no others. Is the action moral? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/53 "2011-10-12T18:53:21Z")
> [@Lubricious\_Integument](#): > > I think justifiable self-defense is a moral action, but I’m not certain that **orcenio** ’s measure of morality is necessarily applicable. Here’s a ridiculous and contrived example. > > a) I’m out in the back 40 with my child and for some reason I am armed. A vicious-looking dog appears, baring teeth, and taking an aggressive posture. I am convinced we are in danger so in self-defense I shoot the dog. I help my child but harm the dog, and on balance I feel I acted morally. > > b) Same as a) except it is just me without my child. Here I harm the dog but help no others. Is the action moral? Er, incorrect. Helping yourself and/or preventing someone from hurting yourself is a moral act as well. In scenario A you are helping two and harming one, and in scenario B you are helping one and harming one. ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/54 "2011-10-12T19:34:07Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Er, incorrect. Helping yourself and/or preventing someone from hurting yourself is a moral act as well. In scenario A you are helping two and harming one, and in scenario B you are helping one and harming one. I agree with you. However, this hypothetical is posed to test the statement “The only measure for the morality of something that makes any sense to me is the degree to which it harms (or helps) **others**. A thought, unacted upon and unexpressed, cannot either help nor harm anyone, and therefore carries no moral weight.” A possible correction would be “The only measure for the morality of something that makes any sense to me is the degree to which it harms (or helps) me or others . A thought, unacted upon and unexpressed, cannot either help nor harm me or anyone, and therefore carries no moral weight.” This goes back to the question raised in the OP. Thoughts with no action certainly don’t harm anyone else. Can they harm the one entertaining the thoughts? Does this possibly make them immoral? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/55 "2011-10-12T22:40:27Z")
It’s immoral to tell someone their thoughts are immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/56 "2011-10-13T00:16:19Z")
It’s immoral to tell someone it’s immoral to tell someone their thoughts are immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/57 "2011-10-14T03:06:21Z")
[I want to go to the beach.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oliathtPzoY) > [@](#): > > _Particles of pain, in my brain > I guess they’re here to stay. > They worked their way inside, and I can’t hide > Or even walk away._ I expect my bad thoughts are different from what Iggy Pop is dealing with, but he seems to agree that an immoral thought is a physical thing, a ‘particle of pain.’ So don’t think bad thoughts. You are only hurting yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/58 "2011-10-14T03:59:02Z")
It’s immoral to think it’s immoral to tell someone it’s immoral to tell someone their thoughts are immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104/59 "2011-10-15T20:08:30Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > This seems to me to reinforce, rather than negate, the point that habitual thoughts\* affect behaviour, especially the bolded part. This is a major part of CBT as well, that learning how to overcome habitual eg anxious thinking leading to anxiety attacks is difficult, and takes time and hard work, because thoughts _do_ become somewhat ingrained and harder to move on from once you’ve been habitually thinking them for a while. > > \*I agree the distinction between habitual thoughts – thoughts that are dwelled on and engaged with – and ‘accidental’/casual thoughts is an important one But the question here is whether there’s a causal relationship between thinking about something and actually doing it. Sure, thoughts about X may cause a person to behave in a way to avoid doing X, but the real relevant question is whether thoughts about doing X will increase the likelihood that X will actually happen. That urge or thought of doing terrible things - the imp of the perverse - is found to be present in the majority of the _non-clinical_ population. Every day perfectly normal people have horrible thoughts about harming loved ones or jumping in front of a bus or whatever. Where the disorder comes in for many is the belief that there is something wrong with them for having those thoughts in the first place - that can lead to an obsession with those thoughts and full-fledged anxiety disorder when the afflicted tries to resist thinking those kind of thoughts. In this case it is the act of trying to suppress the thought that causes the thought to resurface again and again. I do not believe people should be held morally accountable for their thoughts. This is partly because I don’t believe thoughts can be controlled. We have plenty of evidence that they can’t. We can change how we relate to our thoughts, but we can’t change the actual content of the thoughts. Even the most successful CBT client will probably admit they still have crazy thoughts, they’ve just learned not to give them as much power as they did in the past. And one natural consequence of not being afraid of those kinds of thoughts is that they do tend to diminish - but it’s not ‘‘control’’ in the sense that you can actively force yourself not to think a certain way. It’s more like old habit being replaced with new. And from personal experience, I find the less we try to avoid and suppress unpleasant things in general, the more we are able to respond rationally to our environment, and the happier we are overall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-thoughts-with-no-action-that-are-morally-ethically-wrong/599104.md?page=2)