# Are there any truly "forgotten" civilizations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 16, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342 "2015-07-16T17:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/1 "2015-07-16T17:45:02Z")
Forgotten as in: Here is an ancient building (or city!) that is far older than any known civilizations in this region. We have no idea who could have done this. Like, how about evidence of civilization in North America dating back to 1,500 BC. Sure, there have been native Americans here for longer than that, but the artifacts and building structures don’t appear to be even remotely related to them, and none of the local tribes mention anything like them in their own folklore–whoever did it just vanished and was …du-du-duuuunhh…forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/2 "2015-07-16T18:24:47Z")
The most famous one is [Çatalhöyük](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk) We don’t know anything about the oldest Neolithic find in Scotland, [Skara Brae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae) Really, almost all the oldest finds everywhere are unknown civilizations. How could it be otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/3 "2015-07-16T18:51:16Z")
Would the [Indus valley civilization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohenjo-daro) qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/4 "2015-07-16T19:07:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > We don’t know anything about the oldest Neolithic find in Scotland, [Skara Brae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae) “Seven of the houses have similar furniture, with the beds and dresser in the same places in each house.” Sounds like an Inn of sorts. Where a bard might hang out. And tell tales. 😃 Too good to pass up. I never knew it was a real place. But all 3 of these places–we really don’t know who built them? Please, pardon the intrusion, this is totally fascinating to me. Keep 'em coming. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/5 "2015-07-16T19:10:52Z")
Weren’t the Etruscans kind of a surprise when their stuff first cropped up? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/6 "2015-07-16T19:20:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The most famous one is [Çatalhöyük](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk) > > We don’t know anything about the oldest Neolithic find in Scotland, [Skara Brae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae) > > Really, almost all the oldest finds everywhere are unknown civilizations. How could it be otherwise? Even better - Gobekli Tepe > **[Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/?no-ist)** > > Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization Predates pottery and agriculture! No clue who made it, otherwise, or anything about them really. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/7 "2015-07-16T19:32:27Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > We don’t know anything about the oldest Neolithic find in Scotland, [Skara Brae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae) In the past decade or so, the excavations at the nearby [Ness of Brodgar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ness_of_Brodgar) site suggest that it may be even older than Skara Brae. It’s certainly a much larger site, and again we know almost nothing of the people who built it. The question “Why is this stuff being found on remote islands in the North Atlantic?” is probably answered simply: Orkney doesn’t have much in the way of wood, so the inhabitants had to build with stone. It’s an absolutely fascinating place. ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/8 "2015-07-16T19:32:28Z")
If truly forgotten, we wouldn’t know about them at all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/9 "2015-07-16T19:58:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Even better - Gobekli Tepe > > [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/?no-ist](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/?no-ist) > > Predates pottery and agriculture! No clue who made it, otherwise, or anything about them really. It doesn’t predate pottery. It predates, as far we know, when those people had pottery, but there is older pottery at other sites. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/10 "2015-07-16T20:00:53Z")
> [@JerrySTL](#): > > If truly forgotten, we wouldn’t know about them at all. Well, true. But I think the question is best interpreted as “civilizations of which we have evidence they existed but know nothing of who the people(s) were.” And there have been some good answers. I wonder if any civilization that reaches a certain size and durability can conceive of being forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/11 "2015-07-16T20:12:45Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, true. But I think the question is best interpreted as “civilizations of which we have evidence they existed but know nothing of who the people(s) were.” And there have been some good answers. > > I wonder if any civilization that reaches a certain size and durability can conceive of being forgotten. Some of these “civilizations” might have been tiny. A thousand people or less. Without writing, it would be surprising if they weren’t forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/12 "2015-07-16T20:13:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It doesn’t predate pottery. It predates, as far we know, when those people had pottery, but there is older pottery at other sites. Fair enough: point in the article is that _they_ had not yet developed pottery. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/13 "2015-07-16T20:21:31Z")
How about Stonehenge? ISTR reading that it far predates the Druids. Do we know who actually built it? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/14 "2015-07-16T20:22:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Fair enough: point in the article is that _they_ had not yet developed pottery. Unless they also hadn’t developed travel and/or trade, this fails to be a huge mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/15 "2015-07-16T20:23:27Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Unless they also hadn’t developed travel and/or trade, this fails to be a huge mystery. I … don’t understand your point. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/16 "2015-07-16T20:37:26Z")
There are, as noted, plenty of structures about which we know nothing, since they predate the people living there, and they left no writing. There are conjectures, but no real proof, about the inhabitants There’s: **Great Zimbabwe** > **[Great Zimbabwe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe)** > > Great Zimbabwe is a medieval city in the south-eastern hills of the modern country of Zimbabwe, near Lake Mutirikwi and the town of Masvingo. It is thought to have been the capital of a great kingdom during the Late Iron Age, about which little is known. Construction on the city began in the 9th century and continued until it was abandoned in the 15th century. The edifices were erected by ancestors of the Shona and other groups located in Zimbabwe and nearby countries. The stone city Great ... **Mesa Verde** \*\*Ancestral Pueblos \*\* (“Cliff Dwellings”) – long called “Anasazi”, but some find the term pejorative. > **[Ancestral Puebloans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestral_Puebloans)** > > The Ancestral Puebloans, also known as the Anasazi, were an ancient Native American culture that spanned the present-day Four Corners region of the United States, comprising southeastern Utah, northeastern Arizona, northwestern New Mexico, and southwestern Colorado. They are believed to have developed, at least in part, from the Oshara tradition, which developed from the Picosa culture. The people and their archaeological culture are often referred to as Anasazi, meaning "ancient enemies", as **Dunbeg Fort** and similar structures on Dingle Peninsula in Ireland > **[Dunbeg Fort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbeg_Fort)** > > Dunbeg Fort (Irish: An Dún Beag) is a promontory fort built in the Iron Age near the modern village of Ventry in County Kerry, Ireland. > Dunbeg Fort is located on a rocky promontory just south of Slea Head on the Dingle Peninsula, looking over Dingle Bay to the south and the Atlantic Ocean to the west. The cliffs have eroded since it was built, and much of the fort has been lost to the sea. > The fort's wall cut off access to the triangular promontory, which was later occupied by a single large ... ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/17 "2015-07-16T21:44:11Z")
There is mounting evidence that the Amazon River basin was home to a very, very large pre-Columbian population. It remains to be seen if it was a cohesive civilization. There is very extensive human-engineered soil called _terra preta_ throughout the region, and as the rainforest is destroyed, remains of large settlements are being revealed in the form of mounds, foundations and ditches. We don’t really know much about those who built sites like Teotihuacan or Tiwanaku, sometimes not even who they were. I think there are plenty of sophisticated cultures that just predate known early civilizations, but weren’t large and didn’t build using materials that last like some does. The lesson? Build with stone, and carve words about yourself into the stone. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/18 "2015-07-16T22:13:19Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > The lesson? Build with stone, and carve words about yourself into the stone. Kind of ironic–the remains of our stuff will linger for millennia after we’re gone, but our words are almost all electronic data on media that probably won’t make it more than 50 years without maintenance. I sometimes wonder how much reinventing humanity would have to do in the event of a cataclysmic die off that sends us all back to the stone age. There’ll be all this machinery and materiel, and no real clues what it does or how it works. ---
**Author:** ![lynne-42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lynne-42/32/3138_2.png) [@lynne-42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynne-42)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/19 "2015-07-19T04:17:38Z")
I think that those who have mentioned writing have hit at the crux of the issue. I don’t think we can really know who built things when there is no written record, because we can’t know what they called themselves. We can know that they existed and slowly build up a picture of their world from the archaeological record and using what we know of similar cultures which have been documented. I am a researcher (LaTrobe University, Melbourne) specialising in the way indigenous cultures store masses of practical information when they are totally dependent on memory. I then apply that understanding to the archaeological record. I have written about Stonehenge, Chaco Canyon (Ancestral Puebloan like Mesa Verde mentioned above) and the hunter-gatherer-fisher mound building site of Poverty Point in Louisiana. I’m now working on nearly all the sites mentioned above. I have even dug on the Ness of Brodgar! I was a guest there talking about my ideas on the purpose of these monuments the world over so they trained me and I pretended I was a real archaeologist. It is simply amazing! My book has only just gone out to journals for academic review, so I am waiting nervously for the response. But the theory has passed every review so far. Basically (to reduce a PhD thesis and academic book to a few paragraphs!) mobile tribes, like our Australian Aboriginal cultures, use the landscape to act as a memory aid to the vast store of practical information, like animal behaviour, plant properties, navigation, genealogies, laws, intertribal agreements … the list goes on and on. Settled pre-literate cultures like the ancient Greeks, used street-scapes and buildings. It’s called the method of loci and the most powerful memory system ever developed, so it is still used by all memory champions today. My research shows that all non-literate cultures use a form of this memory method as well, and this can explain the structures of the enigmatic monuments they build in the transition from a mobile lifestyle when they used the broad landscape, to a settled farming culture when they used the built environment. Many of the monuments we see, such as Stonehenge, the Ness of Brodgar complex, stone and timber circles all over the world, such as at Gobekli Tepe mentioned above, demonstrate exactly what the elders would have needed to localise a memory system based on the broader landscape when they settled. Who built Stonehenge? The Neolithic Britons did. But I don’t think we can be any more specific than that. The Ancestral Puebloans built Mesa Verde and the Ancestral Zimbabweans built Great Zimbabwe. Great Zimbabwe doesn’t match my pattern, though. I use that as a counter example, because it is a much larger community and has a hierarchy with leaders with individual wealth at the helm. The others we’ve mentioned aren’t like that - they are materially egalitarian. That makes a massive difference as well as to what is left - but too much to write here - I have already waffled on too long. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342/20 "2015-07-19T04:50:43Z")
It would be interesting if they ever could dig under the ice in Antactica what they could find. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-truly-forgotten-civilizations/725342.md?page=2)