# Are there any undemarcated boundaries left in the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 11, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040 "2008-09-11T00:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/1 "2008-09-11T00:56:11Z")
I remember looking at maps back in elementary school showing some undemarcated boundaries in the Middle East and Africa. I also think there were some in the Arctic. Are there any such undemarcated boundaries left? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/2 "2008-09-11T01:07:22Z")
I think mostly under the sea. ISTR that a whole bunch of countries are arguing about this in the Arctic, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/3 "2008-09-11T01:09:47Z")
How about land boundaries? The far north of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia? ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/4 "2008-09-11T01:27:13Z")
Yes, two at least 1. between United Arab Emirates and Oman 2. between United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. cite: My **National Geographic Atlas of the World** , 8th Edition ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/5 "2008-09-11T01:40:05Z")
There is the disputed region between India and China. [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon_Line) I don’t know if that counts as undemarcated though. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/6 "2008-09-11T01:41:09Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > How about land boundaries? The far north of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia? TTBOMK, those are pretty clearly spelled out in treaty, as some valuable resources and routes to mostly-ice-free seaports lie on or near them. The fact that the Saami (Lapps) travel across them is immaterial to who officially owns what as defined by them. That said, the boundaries of India, Pakistan, and China in the general area of Kashmir are still in dispute. I believe there are a couple of other China-India disputed borders – nothing they’re interested in going to war about, but stuff wher one’s claim and the other’s overlap by a few precipitous miles. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/7 "2008-09-11T01:58:47Z")
I was surprised when I learned that the border between Labrador and QC has not been formerly recognized by QC, so it sort of meets your criterion. From wiki: > [@](#): > > One of Newfoundland’s conditions for joining Confederation in 1949 was that this boundary be entrenched in the Canadian constitution. While this border has not been formally accepted by the Quebec government, the Henri Dorion[2] Commission (Commission d’étude sur l’intégrité du territoire du Québec) concluded in the early 1970s that Quebec no longer has a legal claim to Labrador. Still, Quebec government publications sometimes ignore or modify the Labrador boundary, especially the southern segment. So if I’m reading this correctly, as far as Quebec is concerned, the border between it and Labrador is not unequivocally demarcated. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/8 "2008-09-11T03:58:09Z")
> [@Ignatz](#): > > 1. between United Arab Emirates and Oman There’s also one between Oman and Yemen, somewhere in the middle of the Rub’ al-Khali Desert (It means “empty quarter”). These vaporous boundaries are quite common in the Arabian peninsula because much of the land is, or was, controlled by Bedouin tribes, who were nomadic. Since they didn’t lay claim to particular tracts of land, borders were defined as “between this oasis and that oasis”, since those were the only things worth claiming. ---
**Author:** ![KRSOradio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/0ea827/32.png) [@KRSOradio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KRSOradio)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/9 "2008-09-11T04:14:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There’s also one between Oman and Yemen, somewhere in the middle of the Rub’ al-Khali Desert (It means “empty quarter”). > > These vaporous boundaries are quite common in the Arabian peninsula because much of the land is, or was, controlled by Bedouin tribes, who were nomadic. Since they didn’t lay claim to particular tracts of land, borders were defined as “between this oasis and that oasis”, since those were the only things worth claiming. According to the Wikipedia article on Yeman > [@](#): > > The Omani-Yemeni border has been officially demarcated. In the summer of 2000, Yemen and Saudi Arabia signed an International Border Treaty settling a 50 year old dispute over the location of the border between the two countries. Yemen settled its dispute with Eritrea over the Hanish Islands in 1998. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/10 "2008-09-11T04:37:11Z")
> [@KRSOradio](#): > > According to the Wikipedia article on Yeman :smack: Figures. I haven’t been to Oman since 1998. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/11 "2008-09-11T04:46:45Z")
According to [this article](http://www.ga.gov.au/education/facts/dimensions/borders.htm), there’s a small section (about 3.6km) of the border between Victoria and South Australia that is not defined: > [@](#): > > The error in calculating the line of longitude was suspected in 1868, and confirmed in 1883. The boundary was disputed by the South Australian and Victorian governments. The matter was taken to the High Court of Australia in 1911, and was not finally settled until 1914, when the Privy Council upheld the ruling in favour of Victoria. It is an interesting point to note that because of this decision, the western boundaries of Victoria and New South Wales do not meet. The border of NSW is set at 141° east, leaving a section of boundary between Victoria and South Australia that is undefined along the River Murray, measuring 3.6 km from east to west. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/12 "2008-09-11T05:25:55Z")
One of the issues between India and Pakistan is that during partition no one ever bothered to properly survey the border through the [Siachen glacier region](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siachen_Conflict) so it could be partitioned (I mean its a wind swept glacier 7 km above sea level, who’s gonna bother fighting over it 🙂 ). Due to that oversight it is now the highest altitude war zone in human history (both nations continue to garrison the region). ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/13 "2008-09-11T06:05:40Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > How about land boundaries? The far north of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia? Clearly defined, although the borders between Norway, Sweden and Finland are quite open and if you blink you might miss 'em. There _is_ a dispute dealing with the territorial waters north of the border between Norway and Russia, but the land border was agreed upon back in the 1940s. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/14 "2008-09-11T14:57:44Z")
Some of Israel’s borders seem to be in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/15 "2008-09-11T15:39:59Z")
The dispute in Israel is about \*which \*borders should apply; the borders themselves are extremely well demarcated. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/16 "2008-09-11T16:21:46Z")
There’s a disputed area involving Peru and Equador. The situation flared up a bit last year, iirc, but seems to have calmed down again now… Some areas of Antarctica have multiple claiments, but it’s a special case. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/17 "2008-09-11T16:40:53Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > According to [this article](http://www.ga.gov.au/education/facts/dimensions/borders.htm), there’s a small section (about 3.6km) of the border between Victoria and South Australia that is not defined: That’s interesting. I love stuff like this. [Here](http://maps.google.com.au/?ie=UTF8&ll=-34.00557,141.007977&spn=0.086379,0.142651&t=h&z=13) is the area on Google Maps - looks like the border in practice runs down the middle of the river (although it also looks like the river could well change its course quite regularly, by the look of those oxbow lakes and old river channels). Also it looks like the Vic/SA border runs along the middle of the channel, but the Vic/NSW border runs along the southern shore. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/18 "2008-09-11T16:55:46Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > According to [this article](http://www.ga.gov.au/education/facts/dimensions/borders.htm), there’s a small section (about 3.6km) of the border between Victoria and South Australia that is not defined: … So, we need for you or a willing friend to go swimming in the Murray River, in the undefined area, and commit a felony. We’ll watch the papers and see which jurisdiction convicts you. Then the matter will be settled once and for all. Get back to us when you’re ready. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/19 "2008-09-11T16:55:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > That said, the boundaries of India, Pakistan, and China in the general area of Kashmir are still in dispute. I believe there are a couple of other China-India disputed borders – nothing they’re interested in going to war about, but stuff wher one’s claim and the other’s overlap by a few precipitous miles. The borders between India-Pakistan (Kashmir) and India-China (Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh) are _disputed_, but not _undemarcated_. Each country has a very clear idea of where it thinks the border is. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040/20 "2008-09-11T21:41:17Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The borders between India-Pakistan (Kashmir) and India-China (Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh) are _disputed_, but not _undemarcated_. Each country has a very clear idea of where it thinks the border is. As I pointed on in my earlier post, while the Kashmir issue as a whole is not one of demarcation, the dispute around the Siachen glacier is. It was left undemarcated as it was so remote, inhospitable and hard to survey (and hence, it was assumed, no one would bother fighting such unpopulated, completely useless territory). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-undemarcated-boundaries-left-in-the-world/463040.md?page=2)