# Are there any unsilencable English letters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 11, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090 "2005-03-11T21:22:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/41 "2005-03-16T02:16:45Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Two comments on the above. > > One. It’s just a game, folks, not a scientific exercise in phonetics. > > Two. If you want to get into phonetics you need to remember that just as each person has more than one vocabulary - reading, writing, understanding, speaking - each person has more than one pronunciation. Normal speech patterns tend to distort pronunciation in several ways. Accent or regional dialect is one, but just as powerful is the distinction between slowly and carefully pronouncing a word in isolation and quickly slurring it during speech. Elided sounds are common in standard speech. Added sounds are also common - think of ath-a-lete or orien-ta-ted. Give February or Athlete to a student in a test situation and the result would overwhelmingly be Feb-ru-ary and Ath-lete no matter that a dialectician would record them differently. > > The only solution I see is to pick a dictionary and use the pronunciations given. If the letter is absent, run with it. I hear ya, and I didn’t mean to sound like I was calling you out. (Also, sorry I kept calling you Expanso instead of Exapno :smack: ). But, in my defense, even though I realize it’s just a game (a surprisingly fun one though!), there’s no English pronunciation on Earth that’ll pronounce quay as “ay” or Volkslied as “olkslied” (i.e., with the letters silent). The letters aren’t _absent_, per se, just unorthodoxically pronounced. But your general point is well taken – for the “touchier” ones, e.g. marijuana, people can disagree and that’s totally cool. Maybe the u does carry the w sound, and the j has nothing to do with it. And for words like “Wednesday” or “fifth,” people can disagree and _both_ be right, based on how they themselves pronounce a word. S’all good. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/42 "2005-03-16T02:26:50Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > fi_f_th You know in my entire life i have never heard anyone pronounce it as Fith, either IRL or movies, television etc. The Two F’s are always clearly heard by me. > [@](#): > > The q in rac_q_uet seems to have a k sound that the c by itself doesn’t have. I addressed this above. A letter does **NOT** have to have no effect on pronunciation to be silent. If we accept your claim here then the b in comb is not silent because comb is not a homophone of com and thus ‘omb’ indisputably has a sound that ‘om’ by itself doesn’t have. Where did people get this idea that a letter that alters pronunciation isn’t silent? If the letter is unvoiced it’s silent, that’s all. > [@](#): > > As The Volokh Conspiracy notes (see links above), if racquet/lacquer/etc count, why not dock for c and/or k? Why not indeed? Do you have an answer? > [@](#): > > Dossie_r_ Umm, you just said that words don’t count if including the letter results in a sound that the other letters by themselves wouldn’t have. The word ‘dossie’ would be pronounced to rhyme with 'Flossie’ or ‘mossy’ according to all the standard rules of English. By your own standard the ‘r’ is not silent because the ‘r’ in dossier has a long ‘a’ sound that the ‘e’ by itself doesn’t have. I actually happen to like dossier as an answer and think it’s better than February, but it does show what happens when we apply your standard that the letter can’t change the pronunciation the other letters would have on their own. > [@](#): > > I’ve never heard of navvy, and besides, it’s a double letter, and therefore discounted as per the OP. The word navvy is in all the dictionaries I own and every one online AFAI can tell. It’s in common usage outside the US at least. But if you have never heard of navvy are you at least familiar with savvy? And where does the OP say that double letters are discounted? I can’t see that anywhere. The OP explicitly leaves the question open to discussion. You unilaterally discounting it isn’t discussion IMO. > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > The only solution I see is to pick a dictionary and use the pronunciations given. If the letter is absent, run with it. I agree. In fact I already said that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/43 "2005-03-16T03:06:25Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > You know in my entire life i have never heard anyone pronounce it as Fith, either IRL or movies, television etc. The Two F’s are always clearly heard by me. Eh, maybe you’re right. I hear it as “fith” when I say it rapidly, but there’s definitely a niggling “f” in there if I enunciate (see Exapno’s post). You can go with “halfpenny,” if you’d like, although me, not being British, would say there’s just the silent l, not the silent f (i.e., see what **rfgdxm** said, if I’m reading his tone correctly). > [@Blake](#): > > I addressed this above. A letter does **NOT** have to have no effect on pronunciation to be silent. If we accept your claim here then the b in comb is not silent because comb is not a homophone of com and thus ‘omb’ indisputably has a sound that ‘om’ by itself doesn’t have. I’m not quite sure I follow you here. “Com” by itself isn’t a word, AFAIK, and if it were, who’s to say that the o couldn’t be long? The meditative aid “Om” has a long o… > [@Blake](#): > > Where did people get this idea that a letter that alters pronunciation isn’t silent? If the letter is unvoiced it’s silent, that’s all. I think you’re taking my objection to “racquet” a little too far. Hell, in First Grade we learned the “e” in “dime” is silent, because “dim” has a short “i.” I just don’t think the “q” in “racquet” is unvoiced – it’s in the hard-c (the k) sound, lumped together with the “c.” > [@Blake](#): > > Why not indeed [have dock count for c and/or k]? Do you have an answer? I guess my answer would be: the “and/or” is my sticking point. So which in “dock” is silent – the “c” or the “k”? It’s clearly not both, or else we’d pronounce it “doo” or “doh.” > [@Blake](#): > > Umm, you just said that words don’t count if including the letter results in a sound that the other letters by themselves wouldn’t have. The word ‘dossie’ would be pronounced to rhyme with 'Flossie’ or ‘mossy’ according to all the standard rules of English. By your own standard the ‘r’ is not silent because the ‘r’ in dossier has a long ‘a’ sound that the ‘e’ by itself doesn’t have. See above. I’m not actually saying that, and if that’s the message you’re taking away, then either you misunderstood or I miscommunicated (or both). I think “dossier” counts because… well, I guess that sort of gets to the matter of the subjectivity here. I can’t imagine an “r” carrying an “a” sound, so it’s gotta be silent. R’s a consonant, a’s a vowel. > [@Blake](#): > > But if you have never heard of navvy are you at least familiar with savvy? Of course, but I’m still gonna maintain (IMO) that double-letters are cheating. > [@Blake](#): > > The OP explicitly leaves the question open to discussion. You unilaterally discounting it isn’t discussion IMO. So discuss. Here’s my opinion: it just seems like a different (silent f?) game, and not as challenging. We can have hajj, off, add, error… (although hajj is probably pushing it, and there’s still no double-q outside of Arab place names). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/44 "2005-03-16T03:55:00Z")
**quixotic78** , when I referred to the “above” I meant all of the above, not specifically you just because you were the last post. We’re cool. Borgmann’s book is an exercise in semantic game-playing. He even has a section on whether certain words should be included in the language on the basis of whether they would make good answers to puzzles! So, from his doubled end-letters alphabet how about - Quarterstaff Hajj - variant of hadj [Riqq](http://www.eckermanndrums.com/english/e_riqq.html) And for k, how about Knickknack? One of those 'k’s has to be silent! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/45 "2005-03-16T04:05:33Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > d – We_d_nesday I pronounce Wednesday as Wendsday not Wensday. As such I would argue that we have a silent e here, rather than a silent d. -Chris ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/46 "2005-03-16T04:20:46Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > I pronounce Wednesday as Wendsday not Wensday. As such I would argue that we have a silent e here, rather than a silent d. Me too – that’s what I amended my statement in Post 38 (although I like your rendering of our pronunciation better – Wendsday, with a missing e). Is there any touch of a “d” in your “handkerchief”? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/47 "2005-03-16T06:40:52Z")
As far as **ck** goes, I’d say that it’s about the same thing as a doubled letter. That is, two letters with the same pronunciation representing a single sound. Thus I’d say neither is silent nor are either of a doubled letter. The **cq** in _racquetball_ is about the same, although the **u** in that word is silent. As far as **v** goes, if you don’t accept either of the two suggestions already made (_fivepence_ and _vraic_), then you’re probably SOL. **V** is by far the most phonetic letter in English. It’s very rare for it not to be pronounced /v/[sup]1[/sup] and except for the **f** in _of_, virtually no other letter is pronounced that way. [sup]1[/sup] Even in words borrowed from German such as _verboten_, the usual practice is to pronounce it /v/. ---
**Author:** ![hyjyljyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/0ea827/32.png) [@hyjyljyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hyjyljyj)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/48 "2005-03-16T13:04:41Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > Me too – that’s what I amended my statement in Post 38 (although I like your rendering of our pronunciation better – Wendsday, with a missing e). Is there any touch of a “d” in your “handkerchief”? Wow. How do you pronounce Wendsday like that? I can’t think of too many letter combinations off the tip of my tongue that are harder to say than NDZD. How in the sam hill you keep from losing that first D is a mystery to me. Same thing with handkerchief. NDK takes too long, so I lose the D. Yet I’d say “the fiFth of FebRuary”. I guess this is an illustration that there is no hard and fast rule, rhyme or reason when it comes to individual variances in speech. For example, my Webster’s lists “fith” as the first pronunciation for fifth. That doesn’t mean it’s preferred, but come ON. That feews loik the sime fing as sighing that Cockney doialect is just as standid a pronunci-eye-tion as inny uvva. Dunnit? Innit? ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090/49 "2005-03-16T13:13:56Z")
I’d prefer gnome and blonde for g and e, because they’re more indisputably silent, imho… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-unsilencable-english-letters/294090.md?page=2)