# Are there any video games where people agree the writing is good? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 18, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750 "2015-12-18T02:59:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/61 "2016-01-25T11:24:42Z")
How has nobody mentioned Undertale yet? The characters and writing on that game are absolutely stellar. Like, good enough to get an Earthbound-esque 16-bit JRPG a massive number of 10/10 scores and Game of the Year recommendations. If you have any interest in video game narrative, you owe it to yourself to pick this one up. To quote one steam reviewer: “This game’s bullet hell mechanics suck! I can’t see the bullets through my tears!” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/62 "2016-01-25T14:03:29Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > The story is meant to be a tragedy, and I think if they had made it a choice it would undermine that and make it feel like there was a “right answer” and a “wrong answer”. It’s a story that is very explicitly about a man’s emotional need to replace his daughter at all costs, even if that means ignoring his surrogate child’s wishes to do so. Put me on the coremelt side of this argument. I thought Last of Us was very well written, up until the end. My problem with it is the inherent difference between playing a game and watching a movie. I would have liked Last of Us: The Movie. Good story, interesting characters, compelling dilemmas. But when you make it a game, where one of the biggest advantages is that _I’m_ controlling the main character, _I’m_ deciding whether to be violent or non-violent, _I’m_ immersing myself in the world, and then you strip all of that when it matters most, then you’ve tainted the entirety of the game. They took what are the best parts of gaming vs. movie watching, and pulled the rug out from under you right at the end. For as well written and engaging a story it was, I was quite upset when suddenly all choice was taken from me to fit an ending the developers wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/63 "2016-01-25T14:24:31Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Put me on the coremelt side of this argument. I thought Last of Us was very well written, up until the end. My problem with it is the inherent difference between playing a game and watching a movie. I would have liked Last of Us: The Movie. Good story, interesting characters, compelling dilemmas. But when you make it a game, where one of the biggest advantages is that _I’m_ controlling the main character, _I’m_ deciding whether to be violent or non-violent, _I’m_ immersing myself in the world, and then you strip all of that when it matters most, then you’ve tainted the entirety of the game. They took what are the best parts of gaming vs. movie watching, and pulled the rug out from under you right at the end. For as well written and engaging a story it was, I was quite upset when suddenly all choice was taken from me to fit an ending the developers wanted. Other than completely sandbox games are there any games that give you that kind of choice? Something like Deus Ex does, but it’s more of an illusion of making a choice than anything. I loved the ending. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/64 "2016-01-25T14:47:12Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Other than completely sandbox games are there any games that give you that kind of choice? Something like Deus Ex does, but it’s more of an illusion of making a choice than anything. Mass Effect. Skyrim. Witcher 3. Fallout series. Walking Dead. Bioshock. There are a ton. And yes, I get that it is often just the “illusion” of choice. But after playing stealthily to avoid killing people, I found it unconscionable that I had no choice but to slaughter a bunch of innocent doctors and nurses who were trying to save the world, even though their only real threat is a scalpel ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/65 "2016-01-25T15:01:41Z")
Nobody likes the writing in Max Payne 2? Or is it just too dated? Sure, it may be a bit heavy on noir cliches, but that’s the whole point—to capture that sort of mood. And that, I think, it did really well. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/66 "2016-01-25T15:21:27Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Mass Effect. Skyrim. Witcher 3. Fallout series. Walking Dead. Bioshock. There are a ton. > > And yes, I get that it is often just the “illusion” of choice. But after playing stealthily to avoid killing people, I found it unconscionable that I had no choice but to slaughter a bunch of innocent doctors and nurses who were trying to save the world, even though their only real threat is a scalpel Oh, I was thinking more about the ending in general. Yeah, that particular scene wasn’t done that well. I don’t think that’s a story problem though. The story that is told doesn’t really change if Joel just walks out with her. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/67 "2016-01-25T19:31:38Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > How has nobody mentioned Undertale yet? The characters and writing on that game are absolutely stellar. Like, good enough to get an Earthbound-esque 16-bit JRPG a massive number of 10/10 scores and Game of the Year recommendations. If you have any interest in video game narrative, you owe it to yourself to pick this one up. To quote one steam reviewer: “This game’s bullet hell mechanics suck! I can’t see the bullets through my tears!” It was really good. I liked Mother 3 as well, another very quirky jrpg. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/68 "2016-01-25T20:06:09Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Oh, I was thinking more about the ending in general. Yeah, that particular scene wasn’t done that well. I don’t think that’s a story problem though. The story that is told doesn’t really change if Joel just walks out with her. I disagree. Up until that point, Joel wasn’t irredeemable. I don’t recall him ever killing innocent people (I usually play as a saint, so I avoid unnecessary killing in the game), and his desire to help/protect Ellie, while paramount, isn’t completely selfish. And then, the character I built in my head and through my actions, does something unforgivable, not just to the doctor and other innocents, but also to Ellie. Sure, it was memorable, but also infuriating because it was completely uncontrollable. Like I said, if it were a movie, it’s fine. I’m not the one controlling the person, making the decisions. But if you have me play as a person who you’ve had me making decisions for 10 hours of gameplay, and then rip away all agency and force me to do things I wouldn’t, well I don’t like it. Don’t give me the illusion of agency, only to have it disappear when the chips are down. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/69 "2016-01-25T20:23:28Z")
I recall playing **Resident Evil 4** all the way through in one weekend because of wanting to see how the story turned out. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/70 "2016-01-25T20:30:06Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Like I said, if it were a movie, it’s fine. I’m not the one controlling the person, making the decisions. But if you have me play as a person who you’ve had me making decisions for 10 hours of gameplay, and then rip away all agency and force me to do things I wouldn’t, well I don’t like it. Don’t give me the illusion of agency, only to have it disappear when the chips are down. Yeah, but isn’t that the point of the game? To make you feel that? It’s not the choice I wanted to make either, but it’s so uncommon for a game to truly surprise me anymore that I enjoyed it overall. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/71 "2016-01-25T21:34:55Z")
> [@ReticulatingSplines](#): > > Yeah, but isn’t that the point of the game? To make you feel that? I don’t remember “Buy this game! You’ll love it when we don’t let you do what you want when it really matters!” I think the point of the game was to tell a story, with the ending they wanted to tell, not one that the player gets to choose. So they accomplished the storytelling goal, but to do so, they negated the investment I had made in the game. That’s what was frustrating to me. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/72 "2016-01-25T22:34:21Z")
With Last of Us… > [@Hamlet](#): > > Mass Effect. Skyrim. Witcher 3. Fallout series. Walking Dead. Bioshock. There are a ton. > > And yes, I get that it is often just the “illusion” of choice. But after playing stealthily to avoid killing people, I found it unconscionable that I had no choice but to slaughter a bunch of innocent doctors and nurses who were trying to save the world, even though their only real threat is a scalpel You may have missed reading the… …recordings and other clues that soon made it apparent that the doctors didn’t really have the key to the cure, and that sacrificing Ellie was basically a desperation crapshoot. Joel’s lying to Ellie was certainly dishonest, but I think his decision to live to fight another day was the correct one. There was greater hope for humanity’s future in the pockets of survivors than there was in the new-world-order nazi-doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/73 "2016-01-26T00:12:09Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > With Last of Us… > > You may have missed reading the… > > …recordings and other clues that soon made it apparent that the doctors didn’t really have the key to the cure, and that sacrificing Ellie was basically a desperation crapshoot. Joel’s lying to Ellie was certainly dishonest, but I think his decision to live to fight another day was the correct one. There was greater hope for humanity’s future in the pockets of survivors than there was in the new-world-order nazi-doctors. _Spoilers ahead_ I had the surgeon’s recorder which says, in part: “We’re about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we’re about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who’ve bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.” Between that and the discussion with Marlene, I think it’s clear that the vaccine/cure is by no means a sure thing, but it is the best shot they’ve had in a long time, and that Ellie is different from not other people, but other survivors. I admit there is some ambiguity, but unless I missed a major point, it was in no way “apparent” that it was a “desperation crapshoot”. Taking Ellie out did absolutely nothing to increase the “hope for humanities future”, it only took one potential solution to the entire problem away, and fulfilled the desperate need for one jagoff to have something to cling to give his pathetic, self-absorbed life meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/74 "2016-01-26T01:05:27Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > _Spoilers ahead_ > > I had the surgeon’s recorder which says, in part: “We’re about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we’re about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who’ve bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.” Between that and the discussion with Marlene, I think it’s clear that the vaccine/cure is by no means a sure thing, but it is the best shot they’ve had in a long time, and that Ellie is different from not other people, but other survivors. I admit there is some ambiguity, but unless I missed a major point, it was in no way “apparent” that it was a “desperation crapshoot”. Taking Ellie out did absolutely nothing to increase the “hope for humanities future”, it only took one potential solution to the entire problem away, and fulfilled the desperate need for one jagoff to have something to cling to give his pathetic, self-absorbed life meaning. That was my take away too. Which was a great ending to that story, and not what I was expecting. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/75 "2016-01-26T02:02:06Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > That was my take away too. Which was a great ending to that story, and not what I was expecting. No doubt. Great story, interesting dilemmas, and intriguing characters. It would make for a fine movie. Just don’t let me run the character for 10 hours and then, when it matters most, strip me of any chance to make my own decision. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/76 "2016-01-26T04:03:00Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Nobody likes the writing in Max Payne 2? Or is it just too dated? Sure, it may be a bit heavy on noir cliches, but that’s the whole point—to capture that sort of mood. And that, I think, it did really well. Agreed. I didn’t even think of it when making my list, but I enjoyed the noir aspects and the storylines of both Max Payne 1 and 2. (Didn’t play 3.) ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/77 "2016-01-26T10:08:06Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > It’s a commitment game. You have to be willing to stick it out. Also, it has several endings and possibilities. You have to interact with everyone and then stick around to see how your choices come back to haunt you. Thirty hours is not enough. > > Not everyone will enjoy it. Parts of it are genuinely unenjoyable, sometimes by design. And I know graphics don’t matter, but the graphics here really are an atrocity. > > Still. Strictly IMO, but PS:T is terrible and deserved to tank, which it did. Does it have good writing? A matter of opinion, I guess, but I didn’t see any Nobels thrown its way. As a game, it sucked. It wasn’t just the graphics-- those were OK for the time. The combat sucked, and it had tedious mazes and other symptoms of bad design. I see another version is in the works. From the looks of it, it’s just waiting for the developers to add a few coats of polish so it can be released and immediately tank, because it’s terrible, just like the original. This is the successor to the most over-rated game in the history of the genre, so of course they had a Kickstarter. And no, genre fiction isn’t literature (I forget which person claimed this), which is why the literature section of your local bookshop doesn’t stock Stephanie Meyer and Frank Herbert. Are those authors successful? Yes, very. Do some people cry when they read these authors? Almost certainly. That doesn’t mean their books should be classed as literary fiction, and I’m pretty sure they weren’t even attempting to write books that could be considered as such, unless they’re stupider than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/78 "2016-01-26T16:42:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > _Spoilers ahead_ > … > I had the surgeon’s recorder which says,…but unless I missed a major point, it was in no way “apparent” that it was a “desperation crapshoot”. [spoiler]I’m not advocating the choice, just that it made an interesting moral ambiguity for both Joel and the player to experience, and a resultant excellent game that didn’t resolve into simple obvious good vs evil. Do you allow a kid the choice to sacrifice her own life based on inconsistent medical opinions? She’s not even 18, doesn’t have a sliver of education that could support an informed choice, and wants to throw herself at fate based on little more than teenage emo martyrdom? Even through the eyes of the informed reader, the doctors had shaky scientific merit and even shakier moral ground to offer that kind of ‘choice’ to a kid.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/79 "2016-01-26T17:05:13Z")
_Spoilers for Last of Us ahead_ > [@GargoyleWB](#): > > ]I’m not advocating the choice, just that it made an interesting moral ambiguity for both Joel and the player to experience, and a resultant excellent game that didn’t resolve into simple obvious good vs evil. Of course it was an interesting moral ambiguity, but you seem to have played a different game than I had. You said: “recordings and other clues that soon made it apparent that the doctors didn’t really have the key to the cure, and that sacrificing Ellie was basically a desperation crapshoot.” I pointed out the recording I had and the conversation with Marlene, that both indicate that your conclusion isn’t in line with the actual facts of the game. If I did miss something, as you indicated, please let me know what it was that made it clear that the medical solution was just a “desperate crapshoot”. > [@GargoyleWB](#): > > Do you allow a kid the choice to sacrifice her own life based on inconsistent medical opinions? Do you allow an emotionally broken self- absorbed violent sociopath to make, not just that choice, but also the choice to murder doctors and foreclose a possible cure/vaccine to a plague that has all but destroyed humanity? > [@GargoyleWB](#): > > She’s not even 18, doesn’t have a sliver of education that could support an informed choice, and wants to throw herself at fate based on little more than teenage emo martyrdom? Even through the eyes of the informed reader, the doctors had shaky scientific merit and even shakier moral ground to offer that kind of ‘choice’ to a kid. Again, if you dismiss the possibility of a cure as that all but impossible and you completely ignore the agency of Ellie, who seems to be in a much better place mentally than Joel ever was, then you played a different game than I did. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750/80 "2016-01-26T17:37:12Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > ETA: Grim Fandango is really special. I would also add the first Gabriel Knight game, Sins of the fathers, and the Monkey Island games, too. Some of my all time gaming moments in those games. Comedies in movies are often under-acknowledged for their writing and craft and the same can be true in games. I do think the Monkey Islands, especially 1-3, are exceptionally well written. In addition, the puzzles in Monkey Island 2 are some of the best constructed puzzles in adventure game history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-video-games-where-people-agree-the-writing-is-good/740750.md?page=5)