# Are There Any Ways In Which Europeans Are More 'Backward' Than Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 6, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250 "2006-11-06T03:37:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/81 "2006-11-06T23:07:13Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] Smoking. Here in CA, you can’t smoke in restaurants, and it’s probably easier to get a nonsmoking hotel room than a smoking one. Unless I go out to talk to one of the smokers while they’re in their outdoor hangout at work, I generally don’t come into contact with anyone who is smoking a cigarette in my daily life. That’s not true when I go to visit Europe. [/quote] Rapidly changing. Similar bans are in place in Ireland, Italy, Sweden, Norway and Scotland, for starters, and France and the rest of Britain are soon to follow. > [@](#): > > Stores being open late. Hmm. It’s just gone 11pm. Luckily, my local supermarket is open 24 hours 😉 > [@](#): > > Automatic transmissions in cars. That’s the default here, but it doesn’t seem to be in Europe. Most of the development of automatics was done by American manufacturers, which goes some way to explain the disparity. Also, many of us prefer to drive a manual. There’s added inertia (at least in the UK) that if you take your driving test in an automatic, you don’t get licenced to drive a manual transmission. Few driving instructors have automatics. Etc. > [@](#): > > But aren’t people enrolled in the state church by default at birth, and you have to do something to get unenrolled? I know that’s the case in at least some countries with a state church. You might be right, I don’t know the details. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/82 "2006-11-06T23:41:29Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Oh, and I say- smoking. Espeically compared to CA! [/QUOTE] Ireland has a total ban on smoking in the workplace including all bars. England is just about to brin in the same. Scotland already has it. Holland, Germany and even France are playing with the politics of it at the moment. It won’t be too long before we all go non smoking in the workplace. There has even been stories of France starting to move on it. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/83 "2006-11-07T00:04:39Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] But aren’t people enrolled in the state church by default at birth, and you have to do something to get unenrolled? I know that’s the case in at least some countries with a state church. Here, unless you claim your donations to your church as tax deductions, the government doesn’t even necessarily know what church you belong to. [/QUOTE] In Germany nobody is enrolled at birth but if your parents are more or less active members of a church you will be enrolled at your baptism (if applicable, of course “church” tax is not just for christians.) Until you are 14 you have to live with your parents decision. However we haven’t had state churches since 1919 and actually the church tax was a reaction to internal migrations in the 19th century that diluted the old state church system. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/84 "2006-11-07T00:21:00Z")
British drivers stubbornly prefer manual shifts. We think automatics are for cripples and people who can’t drive properly. With fuel taxed so heavily, the poorer fuel economy they deliver carries more weight with us. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/85 "2006-11-07T00:24:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mk VII] British drivers stubbornly prefer manual shifts. We think automatics are for cripples and people who can’t drive properly. With fuel taxed so heavily, the poorer fuel economy they deliver carries more weight with us. [/QUOTE] Road design maybe plays a part…I know I decide the gear for an upcoming roundabout well in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/86 "2006-11-07T00:31:50Z")
I would include the drive to invent and perfect things. The fact that the U.S. drops so much $$$$$ into research universities is part of it but it goes way deeper than that. Even independent inventors have contributed a lot (Alexander Graham Bell, Marconi, the Wright Brothers etc). The fact that many of these people were immigrants that waited to achieve their dream until they got to the U.S. drives the point home. I want to start a Great Debate thread about why this may be. Think of a list of all the revolutionary inventions in the world since the late 1800’s. The U.S. is ridiculously overrepresented and can probably beat the rest of the world combined. [U.S. inventions.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_inventions) Europe and the rest of the world certainly be backwards without those. I have no doubt that someone would have certainly come up with some of them given time but the trend remains extremely strong to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/87 "2006-11-07T00:41:30Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] Think of a list of all the revolutionary inventions in the world since the late 1800’s. The U.S. is ridiculously overrepresented and can probably beat the rest of the world combined. [U.S. inventions.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_inventions) Europe and the rest of the world certainly be backwards without those. I have no doubt that someone would have certainly come up with some of them given time but the trend remains extremely strong to this day. [/QUOTE] Perhaps you could furnish us with a list of revolutionary inventions in the world since the late 1800’s? That wiki link doesn’t really cut it. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/88 "2006-11-07T00:50:18Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] Even independent inventors have contributed a lot (Alexander Graham Bell, **Marconi** , the Wright Brothers etc). The fact that many of these people were immigrants that waited to achieve their dream until they got to the U.S. drives the point home. [/QUOTE] Why is Marconi in your group? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/89 "2006-11-07T00:52:24Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] Perhaps you could furnish us with a list of revolutionary inventions in the world since the late 1800’s? That wiki link doesn’t really cut it. [/QUOTE] That is what we call a gratuitous request for a cite. Perhaps you can tell me some inventions that Europe should be credited during the same time-frame and we can compare. You are correct in way though. The list of U.S. inventions in that Wikipedia link is far from complete. What the hell are you people doing over there? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/90 "2006-11-07T00:55:08Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Why is Marconi in your group? [/QUOTE] Sorry. You are right about that one although he and the company he founded did some important work in the U.S. He was more of a European guy until the end. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/91 "2006-11-07T01:04:43Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] That is what we call a gratuitous request for a cite. Perhaps you can tell me some inventions that Europe should be credited during the same time-frame and we can compare. [/QUOTE] Transistors. Linux. Cars. More? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/92 "2006-11-07T01:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Transistors. Linux. Cars. More? [/QUOTE] The first transistors in the form they are used in electronic equipment and computers today were [invented at Bell Labs in the U.S. in 1947.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor) That was followed by the [integrated circuit invented at Texas Instruments in 1959.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit) Cars based on internal combustion engines were invented in Europe but it took Henry Ford to find a way to manufacture them cheaper and reliably enough for common use. Linux is really just an open-source Unix variant and Unix itself was also invented in the U.S. at AT&T in the 1960’s. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/93 "2006-11-07T01:24:23Z")
Blimey you’re being picky. OK, how about sonar, diesel engines, socialism…(no, wait…) ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/94 "2006-11-07T01:30:39Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Blimey you’re being picky. OK, how about sonar, diesel engines, socialism…(no, wait…) [/QUOTE] You can have those for sure. If you have never thought about it before, the lopsidedness is tremendous when it comes to U.S. inventions versus European ones since the late 19th century and it even gets worse shortly after that. That wikipedia list I posted earlier was crap in that it is very incomplete. Next time you walk around your house or your office, look at all the modern things around you starting with lights and moving on to almost all computer parts, audio equipment, etc. The list is tremendous. Make a mental note of the ones that are versus aren’t American in a fairly direct way and see what you find. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/95 "2006-11-07T01:59:40Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Rapidly changing. Similar bans are in place in Ireland, Italy, Sweden, Norway and Scotland, for starters, and France and the rest of Britain are soon to follow. [/quote] Yes, I noticed and appreciated the difference when I visited Ireland in 2004- the restaurants and pubs were much less smoky than they had been on my previous visits to Europe. I think I had the biggest problem with things not being open late in Scandinavia. 24-hour businesses don’t seem to have caught on there ☹ Protestant work ethic, HAH! > [@](#): > > Most of the development of automatics was done by American manufacturers, which goes some way to explain the disparity. Also, many of us prefer to drive a manual. There’s added inertia (at least in the UK) that if you take your driving test in an automatic, you don’t get licenced to drive a manual transmission. Few driving instructors have automatics. Etc. We don’t have different licenses for automatic or manual- a driver’s license is a driver’s license, so there’s no real reason to take your driving test in a manual. I’m pretty sure that most driving instructors have automatics. Rental cars are all automatics. I can’t drive a manual (only tried once, with limited success) and it really doesn’t affect my life much- I buy cars with automatic transmission (it takes some doing to get a manual), if I rent a car, it has an automatic, and most other people have automatics, so it’s not too likely I’d be called on to drive stick. I got the idea about people being enrolled automatically in a state church from (outdated and inaccurate) information about the [Church of Sweden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Sweden), though at least one of your parents had to be a member for you to automatically become a member at birth. Since 1996, though, they’ve changed things so that you only become a member when you are baptized into the church. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/96 "2006-11-07T04:54:18Z")
Societies/Cultures/Countries are not backwards. People are. Everywhere I’ve ever been I’ve found dumbasses, geniuses and everything in between. The distribution does not appear to be geographically based. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Willow\_Plate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c2a13f/32.png) [@Blue\_Willow\_Plate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Willow_Plate)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/97 "2006-11-07T05:02:18Z")
I think it’s funny (and I don’t mean funny ha-ha) that some have made mention of the apocryphal European “church tax” without making mention of the large amount of American federal tax dollars that are being funneled into religious charities. Not that I have a complaint about that, really, but I do think it would be more efficient and less expensive for the federal govenment to take over certain functions it is currently paying non-profits (both religious and non-religious) to perform. ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/98 "2006-11-07T06:06:57Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Most Americans are covered by employer-sponsored health care. Actually about [15%](http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml) of the population has no medical coverage at all. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/99 "2006-11-07T06:25:44Z")
That doesn’t contradict what **Renob** said, does it? Not having health insurance does not necessarily equal not having access to health care. The U.S. social safety net — which includes community health centers, public and non-profit hospitals, any emergency room, and charity care by physicians — absorbs two-thirds of the cost of the health care consumed by the uninsured. This safety net, while not a single, unified, easy-to-manage system, essentially functions as a catastrophic health insurance policy. The more health care the uninsured need, the less they pay. Uninsured individuals pay a mere 9 percent of the hospital inpatient costs they incur. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250/100 "2006-11-07T07:03:34Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Consumerism: How is this bad? Or even **backwards**? Being picky about where you put your bucks is probably one of the greater blocks against tyranny and getting screwed over yet. [/QUOTE] Well, according to [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) : > [@](#): > > 1. a modern movement for the protection of the consumer against useless, inferior, or dangerous products, misleading advertising, unfair pricing, etc. > 2. the concept that an ever-expanding consumption of goods is advantageous to the economy. > 3. the fact or practice of an increasing consumption of goods: a critic of American consumerism. It sounds to me like you are using definition 1, and the people who disagree with you are using 2 or 3. [QUOTE=Renob] My ideology is that liberty and individual rights are important. Therefore, I judge European states that do not similarly recognize liberty and individual rights as being less advanced. [/QUOTE] No, you are saying that the rights and liberties of _businesses_ are important. [QUOTE=Renob] Raising taxes to pay for these state benefits reduces freedom. Forcing one group of people to give mandatory vacations to another group of people reduces freedom. [/QUOTE] Wrong. A _lack_ of benefits reduces freedom; someone who can’t afford to take a vacation is less free than someone who can. [QUOTE=Renob] Progress, to me, means more freedom, not less. Europe has this backwards, as it increases its government it reduces the freedom of its citizens. [/QUOTE] And America has less freedom, because more and more people’s lives are defined by work and financial necessity. You are using the ridiculous right wing assumption that government intervention is always bad, and always reduces freedom, which is pure nonsense. Without governemt, you’d be living like a hermit, unable to venture out for fear of being attacked, unable to do business with anyone because you’d be unable to trust them. Why do you think that we nowhere see a libertarian state ? Because such a think is unworkable, that’s why. Freedom _comes_ from the government, otherwise we’d be the slave of the nearest fellow with more power than we have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-ways-in-which-europeans-are-more-backward-than-americans/379250.md?page=6)