# Are there cavemen in heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718 "2009-10-22T05:54:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/21 "2009-10-22T12:52:37Z")
Why not? There are cavemen on Riverworld. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/22 "2009-10-22T12:55:05Z")
“Heaven, so easy even a caveman can do it.” Many Christian religions have a concept of default salvation for those who were never given an opportunity to make the choice (children who die young, etc.). Under that principle, I would think that cavemen would make it to heaven. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/23 "2009-10-22T12:56:03Z")
> [@Bob](#): > > He could stop it, but chooses not to. That doesn’t sound “all good” to me. In fact, He sounds like a callous psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/24 "2009-10-22T13:05:28Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Well, it could be argued that God perceives time differently than we do. We’re travelling along a line drawn upon a page, always facing the same direction, whereas God has the page lain down in front of him and perceives the whole line at [once](http://s3.amazonaws.com/jaanix/images/25847/1999-giant-book_1449042i.jpg). From that perspective, 70,000 vs. 2,000 years ago may be a meaningless distinction, they’re both just dots on the same line. This is simultaneously inane and meaningless. You say “it could be argued”, but what exactly are you arguing? Yes, god may be a Tralfamadorian, this is not a novel idea, what does this have to do with the OP’s question? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/25 "2009-10-22T13:13:58Z")
There may be - but I have it on good authority that there ain’t no beer. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/26 "2009-10-22T13:22:09Z")
bickering aside, has anyone offered an answer other than “no, because heaven doesn’t exist.” ?? koxinga, bob, and blake. you all seem to be on the “heaven exists” side. what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b77776/32.png) [@Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothy_Mantooth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/27 "2009-10-22T13:30:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s no rational reason to believe in God or heaven or souls. And the people who DO believe in such things don’t agree with each other. So, the factual answer would be “No”; and the mythical answer would be “depends who you ask”. No kidding people don’t agree with each other, that’s why I posted this in a forum for DEBATES. What I want to know is, for those who believe in both heaven and cavemen, at what point did humans become eligible to go to heaven? To the people who believe cavemen do go to heaven, at what point did God make the distinction between them and their more primitive ancestors? Also, how happy would cavemen be in a Christian heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/28 "2009-10-22T13:32:53Z")
They will be in Caveman heaven, but you could probably visit. Since everyone gets the heaven they want, if you want cavemen, then you can have some. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/29 "2009-10-22T13:40:45Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > No, absolutely not! RAA is perhaps the most important tool of all in logic, but it does not require evidence of the truth of the proposition in question - indeed, it is a tool to _demonstrate the proposition’s falsehood_. No, you haven’t actually demonstrated anything, merely asserted it. > [@](#): > > In this example, I am considering the statement “Some Homo Erectus individuals entered Heaven by virtue of their beliefs.” You are assuming a number of things are true - that Homo erectus entered Heaven, that it was by virtue of their beliefs, and that those beliefs were diverse. And that diversity of belief disqualifies one from Heaven. Assuming it to be all true, sure, but that is not a syllogism, it is a tautology. What I am asking is your justification for assuming that Homo erectus had diverse beliefs, and that diverse beliefs disqualify one from Heaven. Using your method, it is child’s play to prove the proposition is true. Assume Homo erectus are in heaven. Therefore, the necessary conditions must have been met. Thus, there are cavemen in heaven. QED. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/30 "2009-10-22T13:42:48Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > koxinga, bob, and blake. you all seem to be on the “heaven exists” side. what do you think? I’m actually playing devil’s advocate. I’m a recovering Christian IRL. But as far` as the OP goes, that depends upon what flavour of Christianity you prefer. If we look at the largest brand of Jesus followers then they have no problem with belief in cavemen, and they have no problem believing they _can_ get into heaven. Cavemen are absolutely no different in Roman Catholic to the people who lived between Cain and Abraham. As far`as I can tell the theology is that they had no requirement to follow specific laws or worship in specific ways as post-Abrahamic people did, and were judged based upon their actions, their love of God and the state of their hearts, ie their righteousness. Just as people like Seth or Methuselah are presumed to be in heaven despite never having entered into the Covenant or accepted Jesus as savior, so too people like Og and Thug are presumed to be capable of entering into heaven if they were righteous. The only possible caveat is that Catholic theology is quiet about precisely when humans were given souls, but adamant that they were given souls at some point as an act of special, divine creation. But so long as we equate man with “something that has a soul” the there’s really nothing new being added by increasing the gap between Fall and Crucifixion by several orders of magnitude. Whatever arrangements were made for the souls of Methuselah and Enoch will equally apply to the souls of Thag and Zog. And that really sums up the whole debate. The fate of the people who lived between the Fall and the Crucifixion has surely been hashed out i every religion more than a few weeks old. If those religions also accept the existence of cavemen then they fall into precisely the same category. Calling them cavemen adds nothing new to the question that I can see. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/31 "2009-10-22T13:45:20Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > That doesn’t sound “all good” to me. In fact, He sounds like a callous psychopath. Not to me. To stop evil would revoke the gift of free will. Would you rather that humans were a bunch of robots? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/32 "2009-10-22T13:48:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not to me. To stop evil would revoke the gift of free will. Would you rather that humans were a bunch of robots? I’d rather evil wasn’t created in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b77776/32.png) [@Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothy_Mantooth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/33 "2009-10-22T13:51:39Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > They will be in Caveman heaven, but you could probably visit. Since everyone gets the heaven they want, if you want cavemen, then you can have some. Yeah, I think that’s pretty explicitly stated in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/34 "2009-10-22T13:55:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d rather evil wasn’t created in the first place. You can’t have one without the other. Accepting that Free Will exists, then it necessarily entails the freedom to perform evil acts. Evil was created by men, not God, and it was created as the result of the practice of free will. Saying that you’d rather a world where free will exists and evil hadn’t been created is no different to saying that you’d rather a world where triangles exist but they don’t have three sides. Grammatically correct but actually gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/35 "2009-10-22T14:07:58Z")
> [@Dorothy](#): > > What I want to know is, for those who believe in both heaven and cavemen, at what point did humans become eligible to go to heaven? To the people who believe cavemen do go to heaven, at what point did God make the distinction between them and their more primitive ancestors? **Lib** , brave as ever, is the only theist I have come across who actually hazards a guess for this threshold [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11390290&postcount=19): Roughly, when cultivation techniques allowed _Homo sapiens_ (not, presumably, _Neanderthalis_ or _Erectus_) to construct permanent buildings rather than the makeshift shelters necessitated by a nomadic lifestyle. Like I say, it seems extremely arbitrary to me, but I admire his refusal to avoid what is IMO one of the most difficult questions a theist must confront. > [@Shodan](#): > > No, you haven’t actually demonstrated anything, merely asserted it. RAA is a _means by which_ statements are proven false. You cannot deny this, though you may well deny what RAA has or has not shown _here_ regarding Homo Erectus beliefs and heaven. I have merely presented something for us to _explore_. > [@Shodan](#): > > You are assuming a number of things are true - that Homo erectus entered Heaven, that it was by virtue of their beliefs, and that those beliefs were diverse. And that diversity of belief disqualifies one from Heaven. I’m assuming the first two **for the sake of a RAA argument** - I don;t believe them myself. I am _proposing_ that their beliefs were diverse because it seems so _absurd_ to consider that an entire species’ beliefs ( **if** they had ‘beliefs’) would be uniform. If you _don’t_ consider uniformity of belief among Homo Erectus to be absurd, well, let us _debate_ it. > [@Shodan](#): > > Assuming it to be all true, sure, but that is not a syllogism, it is a tautology. No, a tautology _cannot_ be false. _All_ of the propositions I am exploring could be false, indeed **I actually believe them to be so!** > [@Shodan](#): > > What I am asking is your justification for assuming that Homo erectus had diverse beliefs Because _uniformity_ of belief throughout an _entire, worldwide species_ seems absurd. Agreed? If you _disagree_, we can _debate_ it. > [@Shodan](#): > > Using your method, it is child’s play to prove the proposition is true. Assume Homo erectus are in heaven. Therefore, the necessary conditions must have been met. Thus, there are cavemen in heaven. QED. For the last time, I do not actually believe in Heaven in the first place. I am not tying to prove that there _are_ or _are not_ Homo Erectus men in heaven. I am exploing the _logical consequences_ **if** there are Homo Erectus men in heaven. If you disagree that what I set forth follows logically, we can _debate_ it. > [@Bob](#): > > Not to me. To stop evil would revoke the gift of free will. Would you rather that humans were a bunch of robots? We _are_ a bunch of biological robots, IMO. A being who _could_ prevent some such robots committing acts of unspeakable evil on others, but _doesn’t_, is not “all good” in my book. If I programmed even the _possibility_ of evil into a fleet of electronic robots just to gain some satisfaction when such evil _didn’t_ happen to come to pass, I would not be “all good”. I would be a fucking **sociopath**. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/36 "2009-10-22T14:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > You can’t have one without the other. Accepting that Free Will exists, then it necessarily entails the freedom to perform evil acts. Evil was created by men, not God, and it was created as the result of the practice of free will. > > Saying that you’d rather a world where free will exists and evil hadn’t been created is no different to saying that you’d rather a world where triangles exist but they don’t have three sides. Grammatically correct but actually gibberish. An argument that’s always repulsed me. You can have Good vs. Indifference rather than Good vs. Evil. There aren’t always two choices at every juncture, but an infinite number. You can have Choosing the Correct Thing vs. Choosing the Indifferent Thing, rather than Choosing the Evil Thing. The flip side of Civic Virtue is not Actively Working for the State’s Destruction, but Not Doing Anything. I can easily imagine a universe where the existence of Puppies and Kittens isn’t balanced by the existence of cancer and Birth defects sorry for this Hijack of a Hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/37 "2009-10-22T14:13:18Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > bickering aside, has anyone offered an answer other than “no, because heaven doesn’t exist.” ?? > > koxinga, bob, and blake. you all seem to be on the “heaven exists” side. what do you think? Simple answer is, “I don’t know.” Trusting that God is a loving God and all people have the opportunity to enter his grace, I just have to assume he has his own plan for them. And of course, that assumes that there is a God. If you believe there isn’t, OK, I respect that as well; but I don’t think the OP’s question has any impact on the question of whether there is a God or not. Also, I think the terminology is a bit fuzzy. By “cavemen” do we mean pre-agricultural _Homo Sapiens_? Do we mean non-human cousins & forebears like Neanderthals and _Homo Erectus_? At any rate, I’ve also found it curious that out of the hundreds of millenia of human existence we only have knowledge of the past five thousand or so. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/38 "2009-10-22T14:20:20Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I’m actually playing devil’s advocate. _Angel’s_ advocate, surely? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/39 "2009-10-22T14:23:57Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I am proposing that their beliefs were diverse because it seems so absurd to consider that an entire species’ beliefs (if they had ‘beliefs’) would be uniform. If you don’t consider uniformity of belief among Homo Erectus to be absurd, well, let us debate it. Then we are exactly back to where we were when I posted first to this thread. Please present the evidence that indicates that Homo erectus had beliefs, and that those beliefs were diverse. If by “absurd” you mean self-contradictory, you have not demonstrated anything of the sort. If you mean that you have some kind of evidence, what is it? You claimed > [@](#): > > Because the ‘beliefs’ of Eric Erectus would surely be so diverse (especially compared to beliefs today) that to specify any condition or criterion for Heaven-entry which he actually meets would surely be met by all and sundry thereafter. What leads you to be so sure that Homo erectus beliefs were more diverse than beliefs are now? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/40 "2009-10-22T14:35:47Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > An argument that’s always repulsed me. You can have Good vs. Indifference rather than Good vs. Evil. There aren’t always two choices at every juncture, but an infinite number. You can have Choosing the Correct Thing vs. Choosing the Indifferent Thing, rather than Choosing the Evil Thing. The flip side of Civic Virtue is not Actively Working for the State’s Destruction, but Not Doing Anything. > I can easily imagine a universe where the existence of Puppies and Kittens isn’t balanced by the existence of cancer and Birth defects 😕 I have no idea why you quoted me prior to posting this particular rant, since it in no way addresses what I stated`rather clearly. I can only assume that you are constructing an argument based on the premise that Puppies and Kittens exist as a result of free will. Because if you aren’t then this entire rant is a gigantic non sequitur. Scratch that, because you are attempting to use it to rebut my argument it’s a giant straw man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718.md?page=3)