# Are there cavemen in heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718 "2009-10-22T05:54:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/41 "2009-10-22T14:36:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Please present the evidence that indicates that Homo erectus had beliefs . . . Hope you don’t mind my chiming in, but if anything the evidence we have points to the contrary. [“Behavioral modernity,”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity) which anthropologists (as I read it) associate with the capacity for abstract thought, didn’t kick in until ~50,000 years ago with _Homo Sapiens_ specifically. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/42 "2009-10-22T14:43:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Please present the evidence that indicates that Homo erectus had beliefs, and that those beliefs were diverse. I do not believe that Homo Erectus _had_ what one could reasonably call ‘beliefs’, any more than I believe that the root of 2 _is_ rational. It’s not an _absurd_ proposition, IMO, but I still don’t happen to consider it _true_. > [@Shodan](#): > > What leads you to be so sure that Homo erectus beliefs were more diverse than beliefs are now? I’m not ‘sure’ of [anything](http://www.simulation-argument.com/#). Nor did I ever say that said beliefs were _more_ diverse than today’s even **if** they did have what one might reasonably call ‘beliefs’. Are you talking to someone standing behind me, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/43 "2009-10-22T14:43:44Z")
> [@Dorothy\_Mantooth](#): > > Are there cavemen in heaven? Yes, but oddly enough, they’re miserable because Geico is the insurer up there. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/44 "2009-10-22T14:48:25Z")
Well if we’re going down this route it needs to be pointed out that the best evidence indicates that erectus had an extremely limited capacity to speak. No greater than that of a chimp in all probability. Given their inability to speak it’s hard to imagine that they had beliefs at all in any manner that we would recognise. If we accept that they did have religious beliefs they must have been innate, since a lack of sophisticated language precludes the transmission of sophisticated ideas such as religion. If we accept that they had innate religious beliefs then such beliefs would have been monotonous, not diverse. Birds have sophisticated-yet-innate ideas about nest building and courtship for example, but they are monotonous within species, not diverse. It is absurd to propose that the religious beliefs of a species that lacks sophisticated language could be anything but uniform. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/45 "2009-10-22T15:02:32Z")
OK **Blake** , so the ‘religious beliefs’ would be not much more sophisticated than, say, “you live somewhere else when you die, and can maybe see and affect the living”, and thus cannot be said to be _diverse_ species-wide because the cognition required to produce such diversity was not yet available. Sounds sensible. My proposal is sunk. See? This is _debate_. I still propose that Homo Erectus getting into Heaven on the strength of such a ‘belief’ is pretty outlandish even for Heaven-believers, but hey, I still seek enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/46 "2009-10-22T15:54:14Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Are you talking to someone standing behind me, or something? I am posting to the person who made these assertions - > [@](#): > > I am proposing that their beliefs were diverse because it seems so absurd to consider that an entire species’ beliefs (if they had ‘beliefs’) would be uniform. If you don’t consider uniformity of belief among Homo Erectus to be absurd, well, let us debate it. > [@](#): > > Because the ‘beliefs’ of Eric Erectus would surely be so diverse (especially compared to beliefs today) that to specify any condition or criterion for Heaven-entry which he actually meets would surely be met by all and sundry thereafter. Why should I assume that this is correct? > [@](#): > > I still propose that Homo Erectus getting into Heaven on the strength of such a ‘belief’ is pretty outlandish even for Heaven-believers, but hey, I still seek enlightenment. What “belief” has been demonstrated? You haven’t produced a scrap of evidence that Homo erectus had any beliefs at all. Assuming facts not in evidence, your client is guilty. Therefore, he should be convicted. :rolleyes: “ **If** A is true, **and** B is true, **then** C is absurd.” “Why do you think that A is true?” Your response has been “I don’t think A is true!” Fine. Then C is not absurd. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/47 "2009-10-22T16:01:13Z")
There seems to be some misunderstanding of what I’m doing here, so I thought I’d make it clear. I don’t happen to believe in heaven myself. But if there _is_ a heaven, some _exploration of the options_ regarding entry or otherwise seems appropriate. [ul][li]Either _no_ Homo Erectus people got in, _some_ got in, or _all_ got in.[/li] [li]Either _no_ Homo Sapiens get in, _some_ get in, or _all_ get in.[/ul] [/li] For Heaven-believers to believe that … [ul][li]None of _either_ get in seems contradictory – would an _empty_ Heaven be worth calling such?[/li][li]_All of both_ get in seems … _profligate_. We would have to delve futher back in time to find organisms which were barred for being, I dunno, too stupid (raising the question of cognition-impaired _humans_, note.)[/li][li]Only _some_ Homo Sapiens get in seems … _exclusive_. This appears to be the most common view amongst Heaven-believers, who usually further believe that you enter or not based on your beliefs and/or acts while living (either at the moment of death or perhaps as a kind of ‘average’ throughout).[/ul][/li] What I’ve been trying to explore here is what kind of criterion would see _some_ Homo Erectus enter while leaving some Homo _Sapiens_ barred. The more ‘primitive’ the beliefs become, the more arbitrary it seems to _bar_ someone for their absence. And the more ‘sophisticated’ and ‘specific’ the beliefs become, the more unlikely it is that a person will ever have _heard_ the “password”, let alone believed it enough to get to say it at the gate. A Heaven that _excludes based on arbitrary criteria_ seems absurd to me, given these considerations. Again, I invite anyone here to point out any flaws in my thinking. > [@Shodan](#): > > Your response has been “I don’t think A is true!” Fine. Then C is not absurd. Absurdities in the logical combinations of propositions are **independent of** whether those propositions are true or not. b\>0 being even _and_ odd is absurd _regardless_ of whether I believe root 2 is rational or not. This is the very basis of _reductio ad absurdans_. If you don’t believe _me_, ask someone you trust. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/48 "2009-10-22T16:15:45Z")
You are becoming tedious and I doubt this will will do anything but go in one ear and out the other, but yes, your thinking is flawed not least because of your unfounded assumption (which you refuse to address) that Homo Erectus, or any species outside of Homo Sapiens, had the capacity for abstract thought. It’s not a matter of “beliefs” becoming more “primitive” as you go further down the evolutionary ladder; it’s that “beliefs” can’t be shown to exist in any species at all save humans. Perhaps that seems “exclusive”, but then you’re back to asking why fruit flies can’t get into heaven. You’ve been at this for a while, hope there’s no chafing down there. You need some lube or something? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/49 "2009-10-22T16:17:30Z")
The question raised in the OP is a good one IMHO, and some here don’t seem to get the point. Where is the line between animals eligible for salvation, who have an eternal soul, and those who don’t? Did Neanderthals have souls? Lucy? Ardipithecus? Chimpanzees? Dogs? Lizards? Bacteria? If someone thinks that humans have eternal souls but a lizard doesn’t, then where in the great tree of life is the divider between the soulful and the soulless? > [@Blake](#): > > You can’t have one without the other. Accepting that Free Will exists, then it necessarily entails the freedom to perform evil acts. Hmmm… is there free will in heaven? What about evil? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/50 "2009-10-22T16:23:44Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > If someone thinks that humans have eternal souls but a lizard doesn’t, then where in the great tree of life is the divider between the soulful and the soulless? How about the point where a species demonstrates self-awareness plus the capacity for abstract thought? If a creature can think to itself, “this is me, an individual distinct from others” and then “where does this thing called “me” go after I die?”, then there you go. > [@CurtC](#): > > Hmmm… is there free will in heaven? What about evil? Depends on whose heaven you’re talking about, of course. If you mean the Christian heaven, then my understanding is that “evil” is another way of saying “in a state of separation from God”, which would be a contradition in terms with the idea that heaven entails some sort of union with God. BTW, some Christians use the same concept to define hell: a state of _utter_ separation from God. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/51 "2009-10-22T16:24:19Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > You are becoming tedious and I doubt this will will do anything but go in one ear and out the other, but yes, your thinking is flawed not least because of your unfounded assumption (which you refuse to address) that Homo Erectus, or any species outside of Homo Sapiens, had the capacity for abstract thought. So if the capacity for abstract thought is the separator, when did that happen? Homo Habilis? Homo Ergaster? Surely you’ll agree that the capacity for abstract thought is a continuum - chimpanzees have it somewhat, even blue jays seem to have some notion of it. However you measure it, they don’t have as much as humans, but how much is enough and when in history did ensoulment happen? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/52 "2009-10-22T16:35:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but oddly enough, they’re miserable because Geico is the insurer up there. So, apparently they have cars in heaven. Do you need health insurance up there? Do you get a Cobra option for 18 months if you’re “laid off” from heaven? As to the OP… you tell me which religion is the correct one, and I’ll tell you if cavemen can go to heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/53 "2009-10-22T16:40:15Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Surely you’ll agree that the capacity for abstract thought is a continuum - chimpanzees have it somewhat, even blue jays seem to have some notion of it. However you measure it, they don’t have as much as humans, but how much is enough and when in history did ensoulment happen? Ah, “surely it is so” again. Seems to be a popular argument these days. But just for funsies, why is it so surely the case that capacity for abstract thought is a continuum? As for your last question, I linked to [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity) earlier in the thread: > [@](#): > > Behavioral modernity is a term used in anthropology, archeology and sociology to refer to a list of traits that distinguish present day humans and their recent ancestors from both living primates and other extinct hominid lineages. It is the point at which Homo sapiens began to demonstrate a reliance on abstract thought and to express cultural creativity. These developments are often thought to be associated with the origin of language. > > . . . > > Whether modern behavior emerged as a single event or gradually is the subject of vigorous debate. So, it would seem to be among anatomically modern humans some time between 250,000 and 50,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/54 "2009-10-22T16:49:45Z")
Of course cavemen and cavewomen get into heaven. The streets may be paved with gold, but someone’s got to mix the stuff up in a pelican’s mouth. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/55 "2009-10-22T17:03:56Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > your thinking is flawed not least because of your unfounded assumption (which you refuse to address) that Homo Erectus, or any species outside of Homo Sapiens, had the capacity for abstract thought. It’s not a matter of “beliefs” becoming more “primitive” as you go further down the evolutionary ladder; it’s that “beliefs” can’t be shown to exist in any species at all save humans. Then friend **Blake** is mistaken in his “assumptions” about the sophisticated-yet-innate ideas of birds and the like. Look, **if** Homo Erectus didn’t have ‘beliefs’, **then** that’s a dead-end in terms of exploring belief-based criteria for entry into heaven. **If** he did, we can explore this line of reasoning further. **If** ‘beliefs’ didn;t appear until a quarter-or-so My ago, we can explore the logical consequences of that threshold too. Deal? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/56 "2009-10-22T17:12:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t see a great contradiction. God is all powerful, but He gave us free will, and as a consequence evil exists. He didn’t give it to Judas. Not when it counted, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/57 "2009-10-22T17:15:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t see a great contradiction. God is all powerful, but He gave us free will, and as a consequence evil exists. He didn’t give it to Judas. Not when it counted, at least. > [@Koxinga](#): > > So, it would seem to be among anatomically modern humans some time between 250,000 and 50,000 years ago. Any way you slice it, at some point in time a creature without a soul gave birth to a creature with a soul. Unless all creatures that have ever existed have souls. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/58 "2009-10-22T17:53:27Z")
Catholic theology posits that souls who died before Christ went to a place referred to as “Limbo,” right? Dante conceived of Limbo as the First Circle of Hell, where the souls were not tormented and indeed were well-treated, but were nonetheless separated from God. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > He didn’t give it to Judas. Not when it counted, at least. _The Last Temptation of Christ_ posits that Judas chose to be the traitor, at Jesus’ request. Someone had to betray him to set events in motion, and Judas was the strongest of the disciples. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/59 "2009-10-22T18:01:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > _The Last Temptation of Christ_ posits that Judas chose to be the traitor, at Jesus’ request. Someone had to betray him to set events in motion, and Judas was the strongest of the disciples. That’s a novel, right? It was prophesied in the Old Testament that Jesus would be betrayed. Whoever fulfilled that prophecy had no choice in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/60 "2009-10-22T18:03:13Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > It takes an enlightened theist indeed to accept the philosophical consequences of the fact, yes the _fact_, that this guy lived a million years ago. He was far, _far_ more intelligent than chimps, made sophisticated tools, cared for the infirm long after they would ‘naturally’ have died in the wild, and may even have used complex language and fire. He is most certainly _not_ an animal (insofar as _we’re_ not classed as animals, legally speaking). Almost certainly more intelligent than a chimp, although measuring intelligence across species is problematic. There is no evidence that I’m aware of that _H. erectus_ cared for infirm. Neanderthals, yes. Most anthropologists would dispute their having “complex language”, although it is a possibility. Fire, maybe, although that may not have happened for another 500,000 years. Just trying to keep the facts straight here. I started a thread about this exact subject many years ago, and not really interested in re-debating the subject. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718.md?page=4)