# Are there cavemen in heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718 "2009-10-22T05:54:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/101 "2009-10-23T17:22:04Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > You mean [this Bible](http://www.topnews.in/files/Dead.Sea.Scrolls.jpg)? Yes that english. The one true language of God and thus the Universe. Obviously my post was a joke. Next time I’ll use the appropriate smiley so as not to cause confusion. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/102 "2009-10-23T17:26:04Z")
Ah, sorry **Tahssa** - I can’t help myself when it appears we’ve got a genuine fundie in here for some sport! ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/103 "2009-10-23T17:26:26Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > OK, that was just my understanding - after all, [self-awareness](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test) is apparent in creatures with a much smaller encephalisation quotient than humans eventually attained, whereas ‘[artistry](http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/chauvet/)’ is only in evidence much more recently. Am I mistaken? I don’t know, are you? I’m increasingly struggling to find any clear position in your posts. Just lots of "certainly"s and "clearly"s. > [@](#): > > You _wouldn’t_ say that a woman who cannot speak or even recognise herself as an individual giving birth to a speaking, self-aware child is a rather absurd proposition given the _gradual_ nature of evolution? What has the rate of evolution got to do with the price of eggs,? I repeat, in RC theology the spiritual body, the soul, was endowed as a specific act of ex nihilo creation via divine intervention. > [@](#): > > It sounds like the very definition of a [hopeful monster](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopeful_Monster) to me. In which case you have totally misunderstood every post of mine that you have read so far. Can I ask you to go back and re-read them? > [@](#): > > Please, help me out here - you’re responding as “ **Blake** the Christian apologetic”, right? Apologist would perhaps be more accurate and less disrespectful to the belief system at hand. > [@](#): > > And my suggestion that the development of speech, artistry and self-awareness was gradual is akin to calling a person with wheels a shopping cart? I don’t understand this exchange. That is because I find myself more and more echoing Koxinga. Your posts are full of "if"s without "because"s. If I had wheels I would be a shopping cart. If a frog had wings it wouldn’t bump its arse on the ground as it hopped. But there is no reason to believe I ever will have wheels and no reason to believe a frog ever did have wings. So basing an argument on whether I am a shopping cart or the state of a frog’s arse is both silly and futile. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/104 "2009-10-23T17:46:00Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I don’t know, are you? From those cites, it appears not, agreed? > [@](#): > > I’m increasingly struggling to find any clear position in your posts. Just lots of "certainly"s and "clearly"s. OK, I _contend_ that evolution is gradual, and does not involve grand leaps such as developing speech or self-awareness in a single event. > [@](#): > > in RC theology the spiritual body, the soul, was endowed as a specific act of ex nihilo creation via divine intervention. > > you have totally misunderstood every post of mine that you have read so far. Can I ask you to go back and re-read them? OK, I know you are pretending to answer as the RC theologist here, who proposes that self-awareness, speech and whatnot emerged in a specific, divine act. But I also know that you, the _real_ **Blake** , knows full well that evolution _doesn’t_ produce these kinds of huge leaps and that saltation is silly. So I’m asking Angel’s advocate **Blake** how he reconciles RC orthodoxy with the _evidence_ that saltation is silly, just as I would ask YEC **Blake** how he reconciled _his_ orthodoxy with the _evidence_ that a young Earth is silly. (I must say, if there’s confusion here it’s probably because _you_ are defending a position you _don’t actually hold_.) > [@](#): > > That is because I find myself more and more echoing Koxinga. Your posts are full of "if"s without "because"s. OK, I contend that language and self-awareness developed gradually _because that’s how evolution works, as the real **Blake** knows full well_. How’s that? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/105 "2009-10-23T18:12:09Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Hehehehe > > Thinking of Christian neighborhoods with “family values”, I can only think of a Heaven where councils are set up so no cavemen or cavewomen can live in the white Religious Right section in the clouds. 😃 Would they even want to? Besides, maybe their idea of heaven was nothing more than a place where the dinosaurs aren’t trying to eat them, and there are no more 'so simple a caveman could do it" commercials 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/106 "2009-10-23T18:13:49Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > From those cites, it appears not, agreed? I don’t know. There are too many "if"s and "clearly"s in your argument to know what I’m agreeing to. > [@](#): > > OK, I _contend_ that evolution is gradual, and does not involve grand leaps such as developing speech or self-awareness in a single event. We aren’t discussing evolution, we are discussing and act of divine ex nihilo creation. > [@](#): > > So I’m asking Angel’s advocate **Blake** how he reconciles RC orthodoxy with the _evidence_ that saltation is silly.. By pointing out that we aren’t discussing evolution, we are discussing and act of divine ex nihilo creation. Divine ex nihilo creation isn’t silly. Totally lacking in evidence certainly, but no sillier than that. > [@](#): > > (I must say, if there’s confusion here it’s probably because _you_ are defending a position you _don’t actually hold_.) No, it’s because you: a) Build your entire position on "if"s and "clearly"s b) Insist on attacking a position that I have clearly never espoused. > [@](#): > > OK, I contend that language and self-awareness developed gradually _because that’s how evolution works, as the real **Blake** knows full well_. How’s that? Terrible. We aren’t discussing evolution, we are discussing and act of divine ex nihilo creation. How evolution works is no more relevant to this discussion than how a shopping cart works. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/107 "2009-10-23T18:34:29Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I don’t know. There are too many "if"s and "clearly"s in your argument to know what I’m agreeing to. That self-awareness developed long _before_ ‘artistry’, since Old-world monkeys (and even magpies) pass the commonly accepted self-awareness test, but there is no evidence of _artistry_ until very recently in human development. Is that so contentious an argument, really? > [@](#): > > Divine ex nihilo creation isn’t silly. Totally lacking in evidence certainly, but no sillier than that. You wouldn’t say it _contravened_ existing evidence, then? You see, whenever we place this notional miracle, the evidence suggests that humans were _already_ self-aware, at least (and maybe _talking_ as well), or that they weren’t painting pictures _yet_. Young Earth Creationist **Blake** could simply point to a miracle as well - God just pulled the continents apart quickly, made fake supernova light shows in the sky, sorted the dinosaurs into their strata during the Flood _etc. etc._ This is not _reconciling_ one’s beliefs with scientific evidence but outright _ignoring_ it, agreed? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/108 "2009-10-23T19:03:17Z")
It’s obvious that self-awareness lies on a continuum going way back. And artistic expression lies on a continuum going back not so far. I guess what they’re saying is the event where God gave us eternal souls happened at some arbitrary point, independent of those other two qualities. So debating who is self-aware seems to be beside their main point: God ensouled mankind when he felt like it, so there. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/109 "2009-10-23T22:47:42Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > What about tribes of hunter-gatherers deep within Africa or in Indonesia 100 years ago who never had contact with outside civilizations? Are they now in heaven? As for them I am uncertain as it is after Jesus’ life but I am inclined to say yes. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/110 "2009-10-24T03:41:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I believe in salvation by faith but as pre-Christ people have never had the oppourtunity to hear the Gospel I think God makes an exception. Why would you? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/111 "2009-10-24T03:59:28Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Why would you? What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/112 "2009-10-24T04:19:18Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > That self-awareness developed long _before_ ‘artistry’, since Old-world monkeys (and even magpies) pass the commonly accepted self-awareness test, but there is no evidence of _artistry_ until very recently in human development. Is that so contentious an argument, really? No but, yet again, it’s totally irrelevant because we aren’t discussing whether there are magpies in heaven. I’m getting increasingly confused about whet your position is here or where you are going with all this. It would help me no end if you could stop with the "if"s and "clearly"s and just lay out your arguments. I get the impression you think there’s some zing at the end of this chain of argument that you are apparently constructing, but unless you lay out the actual argument the only response I can give is that it’s all irrelevant because we not discussing if there are shopping carts in heaven. > [@](#): > > You wouldn’t say it _contravened_ existing evidence, then? No, because I have yet to be convinced of the existence of any evidence. > [@](#): > > You see, whenever we place this notional miracle, the evidence suggests that humans were _already_ self-aware, at least (and maybe _talking_ as well), or that they weren’t painting pictures _yet_. Can we see this evidence? I can’t even think what evidence we might have that allows us to know the workings of the mind of a dead organism. > [@](#): > > This is not _reconciling_ one’s beliefs with scientific evidence but outright _ignoring_ it, agreed? It’s totally irrelevant and somewhat mystifying, that’s what it is. Unless of course you have a fossil of someone’s thought processes that would actually require ignoring. Until then there is nothing \*to \*ignore. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/113 "2009-10-24T04:27:39Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What do you mean? Why would you think god would make an exception? Being an all knowing, all powerful creature sure makes giving exceptions seem like confessing to making mistakes. Then he is not god. Thinking that you would believe god makes exceptions, puts doubt on whether you are a believer after all. It is not a minuscule problem, but fundamental. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/114 "2009-10-24T07:44:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I’m getting increasingly confused about whet your position is here or where you are going with all this. It would help me no end if you could stop with the "if"s and "clearly"s and just lay out your arguments. RC-orthodox **Blake** proposes that > [@RC-orthodox Blake](#): > > To take the RC, humans physically evolved gradually, but at some point we were imbued with a soul. With the soul came all the characteristics of man as we know them: self awareness, artistry, speech and so forth. The fall as described in the scriptures is that self aware man turning from the path that God had prepared for him. I counter-argue that a woman who cannot speak or even recognise herself as an individual miraculously giving birth to (or, say, seeing miraculously appear, from nowhere, before her eyes) a speaking, self-aware child contradicts not only the general, well-evidenced rule that evolution only works gradually, but specific evidence which places the emergence of some of these characteristics at _different times_. For example, the oldest evidence of ‘artistry’ in the sense of painting pictures is Chauvet, a mere 32000 years ago. However, the [self awareness test](http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-m/patterson01.htm) is passed by, for example, _gorillas_, whose ancestry diverged from ours some 8 _million_ years ago or more. > [@](#): > > Can we see this evidence? I can’t even think what evidence we might have that allows us to know the workings of the mind of a dead organism … Unless of course you have a fossil of someone’s thought processes that would actually require ignoring. Until then there is nothing \*to \*ignore. The cranial capacity of a fossil (and therefore its [encephalisation quotient](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio)) gives an indication of cognitive complexity: it would be absurd, for example, to propose that the big-brained Homo Sapiens who lived some time before cave painting couldn’t even _speak_ to each other. Add evidence of complex tool manufacture _etc._ and the RC orthodox position that even Homo Erectus was not self-aware becomes extremely tenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b77776/32.png) [@Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothy_Mantooth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/115 "2009-10-24T13:12:22Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As for them I am uncertain as it is after Jesus’ life but I am inclined to say yes. So people have to spend eternity in an afterlife based on a religion they never even heard of? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/116 "2009-10-24T14:24:06Z")
> [@Dorothy\_Mantooth](#): > > So people have to spend eternity in an afterlife based on a religion they never even heard of? I don’t find this out of the question. I mean, hey, I don’t remember being asked if I wanted to be born into this life. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/117 "2009-10-24T15:09:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Why would you think god would make an exception? Being an all knowing, all powerful creature sure makes giving exceptions seem like confessing to making mistakes. Then he is not god. Thinking that you would believe god makes exceptions, puts doubt on whether you are a believer after all. It is not a minuscule problem, but fundamental. Because I believe God is forgiving and it is unfair if you’ve never heard of Jesus but you die. BTW, are you a Christian fundamentalist or an atheist trying to disprove my faith? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/118 "2009-10-24T15:32:55Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > You mean [this Bible](http://www.topnews.in/files/Dead.Sea.Scrolls.jpg)? That’s obviously a fake. It doesn’t even have Jesus’s words in Red. Oh, and before I forget, 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b77776/32.png) [@Dorothy\_Mantooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothy_Mantooth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/119 "2009-10-25T02:36:53Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I don’t find this out of the question. I mean, hey, I don’t remember being asked if I wanted to be born into this life. Maybe not, but you can also leave this life any time you want. Also, it’s senseless to believe there’s an afterlife that appeals only to you and a tiny proportion of the people who have ever lived. A strictly Christian afterlife would be hell to a caveman. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718/120 "2009-10-25T05:46:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Because I believe God is forgiving and it is unfair if you’ve never heard of Jesus but you die. The reason I asked the question about a tribe of hunter-gatherers 100 years ago, is that if Christian missionaries were really concerned about their ultimate fate, _why would they tell the natives about Jesus_? The logical thing to do would be to shut up about it. The logical thing would be to not even mention it back home - if everyone who had ever heard of Jesus would just shut up about it, and burn the Bibles, then everyone gets to go to heaven! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cavemen-in-heaven/514718.md?page=7)