Yes, Darla gave birth to Connor.
I don’t think that necessarily works. That somebody will do something doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t get to choose it of their own free will. I don’t believe in free will myself, but I don’t think that something being prophecised, or declared to happen in advance, negates it.
God knew it was going to happen. Therefore Judas had no choice. Either that or God was wrong. Having no choice necessarily means having no free will.
Imagine I follow you around for a day and watch all of your doings. I then hop into my time machine and go back a few days. I can accurately predict what you will do on that day. Does that mean that you had a choice the first time around, but didn’t the second time?
Imagine that dogs can talk to the trees and make apples fly into outer space.
I’m not talking about an imaginary world. In an imaginary world anything is possible, I suppose, but in a world where time machines don’t exist, I am going to assume that you only do things once, and referring to the “first” time and the “second” time for a singular event is incoherent.
Unless he chose to fulfill the prophecy, rather than (a) pass it off to someone else, or (b) risk whatever cosmic chaos might result from a prohecy not being fulfilled.
He didn’t choose to fulfill a prophecy. That makes no sense. Had he not done it, the prophecy would have been incorrect, and God would have been wrong.
I have to say, however, that citing a popular novel/movie and claiming that Judas acted as he did in order to avoid cosmic chaos is an entertaining, if silly proposition. Who do you see in the remake, Bruce Willis?
Right. So the starting point was the Octomom?
Actually, you missed one. “Unless no creatures that have ever existed have souls.”
That’s fine - I’d merely note that any actual evidence would only set a youngest possible limit, since the probability of us uncovering the oldest actual example of fire use, a corpse having a condition it couldn’t survive without help, or any kind of evidence (??) for language use is vanishingly small.
In fact, it strikes me that all this talk of what Homo Erectus could or couldn’t do is rather distracting us. Let us pare down our assumptions to two:[ul]Heaven exists.[li]There is some kind of (non-universal) criterion for entry.[/ul]Whenever this criterion was met, the fact is that the first ‘souled’ entrant would be pretty much indistinguishable from their ‘soulless’ parents. I’d be interested in exploring this with any Heaven-believers.[/li]
(I would also point out, for the logically confused, that I have no evidence for these two assumptions)
You’re right of course. But the premise in the OP is that people do go to heaven, and I assumed that requires a soul.
[quote=“SentientMeat, post:69, topic:514718”]
That’s fine - I’d merely note that any actual evidence would only set a youngest possible limit, since the probability of us uncovering the oldest actual example of fire use, a corpse having a condition it couldn’t survive without help, or any kind of evidence (??) for language use is vanishingly small.
In fact, it strikes me that all this talk of what Homo Erectus could or couldn’t do is rather distracting us. Let us pare down our assumptions to two:[ul]Heaven exists.[li]There is some kind of (non-universal) criterion for entry.[/ul]Whenever this criterion was met, the fact is that the first ‘souled’ entrant would be pretty much indistinguishable from their ‘soulless’ parents. I’d be interested in exploring this with any Heaven-believers.[/li][/QUOTE]
OK. I’ll wade in for a minute. I think we have to assume that souls did not evolve. They were bestowed upon us by God. So, I think the way to approach this is that at some point, God bestowed souls upon humans (or a group of humans) and any parents not receiving a soul would already be just dead animals.
This is not what I believe, btw. I’m basically an atheist.
The point is the ability to know what is going to happen - a time machine is just another way of thinking about it, as opposed to simply having knowledge of what is going to happen. There are others; a person could simply know you well enough to be able to come up with an accurate prediction. Logically speaking, perfect knowledge would lead to a perfect prediction, and in this instance the predictor is supposed to not only have that knowledge of the future but also that knowledge of you.
An accurate prediction is one thing, a prophecy quite another. I could make an accurate prediction simply by chance. A prophecy, at least in this context, is the Word of God.
In this instance the predictor *created *the future, if the future is in fact knowable. He is *responsible *for it. He *caused *it, he didn’t predict it. He knew, before Judas was born, that he would betray Christ. Judas had no choice.
Is there any use in pointing out that “capacity for abstract thought” is not the same as “reliance on abstract thought”?
I suppose the thing to do here is ask: “DO you agree that the capacity for abstract thought is a continuum?”
When the predictor has perfect knowledge, what is the difference?
Simply knowing that something will happen doesn’t mean that the knower has to have made it so. Knowing something will happen isn’t the same as causing it to happen. Knowing that someone will do something doesn’t rob them of that choice, just as knowing what someone did doesn’t mean that they had no choice at the time. If retrospective knowledge doesn’t impact free will, then a prophecy based on that retrospective knowledge shouldn’t, either.
I swear I thought I made this crystal clear. The difference is that the predictor is God. As in the one who created the universe.
In this case he did, because he is God, the Creator of the Universe. This insistence of yours on an anonymous “knower” is a red herring.
It is when God, the Creator of the Universe knows it. And says it.
It does when you are God, and created the universe.
This is essentially incoherent. Knowledge of what *has *happened is available to everyone, and requires no prophetic powers. Knowledge of what *will *happen is restricted to God. Apples and wombats.
But of course. But since God’s prophecy wasn’t based on retrospective knowledge, the point is moot.
If your argument is that, the universe being a creation of God, there can be no free will at all and God as creator is responsible for all decisions, then I would agree with you. My argument was based on the idea you were claiming that knowing something was going to happen in and of itself negates free will.
Considering i’ve actually referred to God several times, i’m not entirely sure you can call it an insistence. I’ve used a general “knower” in order to illustrate the point that the situation can work for any knower, not just God. Beyond that, red herring implies a deliberate attempt at misdirection, which seems uncalled for. I’m not attempting to trick you.
No, it isn’t. They’re still two seperate acts, even when involved with the same actor.
Only if there is no free will at all.
It’s not incoherent at all, essentially so or otherwise. Knowledge of what will happen is only a matter of knowing what has happened. God is supposed to have the ability, but it’s by no means restricted to him.
It could very well have been. God is supposedly omniscient, and as such, would know what will happen in the future, providing retrospective knowledge. You can’t guarantee that the prophecy is based on prospective or retrospective knowledge; God’s supposed to have both about the situation.
My crackpot theory is that when a creature dies the contents of its brain are uploaded to the Great Server in the Sky where data is analyzed to help program the instincts of future generations.
So if the last thing a creature saw was the gaping maw of a reptile about to devour it, the screenshot (along with billions of others like it) will form the basis of an image-recognition program that triggers a fear response upon viewing a similar creature.
I guess I’m not sure what makes your speculation on Judas, the nature of prophecy, and the role of free will more authoritative and less silly than someone else’s?
I guess because I’m basing mine on the Bible. Where exactly in the Bible did Judas betray Christ in order to keep the universe from exploding? Or whatever cosmic chaos you are referring to.