# Are there cheaper alternatives to San Francisco **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 23, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585 "2013-11-23T01:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/1 "2013-11-23T01:36:11Z")
I don’t mean living on the outskirts of the bay area, I mean what SF supposedly stands for from the outside looking in like an educated professional class, hippies/liberals, a culture of empathy and self actualization, tolerance of diversity, etc. Basically a city where educated professionals who value liberal/progressive values or self actualization and quality of life would feel at home. The cities I can think of are Madison WI, Bloomington IN, Durham NC, Portland OR. I’m sure there are lots of others though. I’ve heard Asheville NC has become more yuppie than hippy. No idea though, I’ve never visited. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/2 "2013-11-23T02:16:42Z")
Austin comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/3 "2013-11-23T02:23:22Z")
A lot of cities dominated by a university would probably fit those requirements. In Iowa it would be Iowa City. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/4 "2013-11-23T02:54:55Z")
True about college towns, to a degree (I’ve been to college towns that had no hippy community). but I dont’ want to be around 18-22 year olds my whole life. I was looking for working adults 25+. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/5 "2013-11-23T03:12:56Z")
Cape Cod and/or the Boston area comes to mind. Lots of universities nearby (Harvard, MIT, etc.), a big gay community (Provincetown), and a long and storied history, much of which revolves around human rights. Outside of the US, I’d say Montreal. Very artsy, big music scene. Much more interesting than Toronto. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/6 "2013-11-23T03:14:12Z")
There are “intellectual” communities in nearly every large city. University City next to St. Louis, Hyde Park in Chicago, Fremont in Seattle, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/7 "2013-11-23T03:43:16Z")
Burlington, Vermont? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/8 "2013-11-23T03:49:51Z")
Not sure what you mean by “outskirts.” Is anything not 415 the Wastelands? Oakland is fine, still not cheap though. San Francisco tolerates a very specific definition of diversity. Austin is a good example, except near opposite in climate! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/9 "2013-11-23T04:20:57Z")
This page has most of the cities listed so far. [http://blog.estately.com/2013/07/17-best-u-s-cities-for-hippies/](http://blog.estately.com/2013/07/17-best-u-s-cities-for-hippies/) So there is some consensus about the cities. But aside from just a hippy community, a community of educated liberal professionals who value quality of life issues (outdoor activities, self actualization, etc) would be nice to have. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/10 "2013-11-23T04:29:13Z")
You can probably bypass Bakersfield. ---
**Author:** ![Sudden\_Kestrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/11 "2013-11-23T05:01:41Z")
Minneapolis used to embody many of those attributes. I haven’t lived there for a decade, so I don’t know if it still does. A smaller Minnesota city like that would be Northfield, home of Carleton and St. Olaf colleges. Lots of coffeehouses, co-ops, free concerts, and social justice orgs. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/12 "2013-11-23T05:03:51Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > This page has most of the cities listed so far. > > [17 Best U.S. Cities for Hippies – Estately Blog](http://blog.estately.com/2013/07/17-best-u-s-cities-for-hippies/) > > So there is some consensus about the cities. > > But aside from just a hippy community, a community of educated liberal professionals who value quality of life issues (outdoor activities, self actualization, etc) would be nice to have. I’ve been in four of the places you mention. What sort of climate are you looking for? What sort of line of work are you looking to do? I mean if you want to live in the Seattle area, I think you can do better than Olympia. Per my sister that’s lived in the Seattle area for the last 10 years, it’s a bit of a slum. I’m going to second **bump** , and really recommend Austin for you. Climate’s going to be a real “B” though. Have you seen what a typical Missoula winter is like? And if you want to live in Arcata, you better like peace and quiet, and preferably bring your job with you. Beautiful place though. ---
**Author:** ![Donegal\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Donegal\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donegal_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/13 "2013-11-23T12:46:17Z")
I would also say Austin, outside the country I would recommend Edinburgh, Scotland ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/14 "2013-11-23T14:04:35Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t mean living on the outskirts of the bay area, I mean what SF supposedly stands for from the outside looking in like an educated professional class, hippies/liberals, a culture of empathy and self actualization, tolerance of diversity, etc. Basically a city where educated professionals who value liberal/progressive values or self actualization and quality of life would feel at home. > > The cities I can think of are Madison WI, Bloomington IN, Durham NC, Portland OR. I’m sure there are lots of others though. > > I’ve heard Asheville NC has become more yuppie than hippy. No idea though, I’ve never visited. I’d think Chapel Hill more than Durham, though they’re practically melded now (as the cities expanded, their borders were getting much closer). My other thought was Asheville, supposedly very gay-friendly at least. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/15 "2013-12-06T19:19:02Z")
Austin sounds interesting but I don’t know if I’d like the hot, humid weather. Looking on Wikipedia the highs are usually only about 10f higher than what I’m used to though (if I the high averages 85 in July here it averages 95 in austin) , so it might not be terrible. And precipitation is about the same so I guess the same heat index. On the plus side no driving on icy roads in winter. I can tolerate hot weather, I just don’t like it. Does Austin have a good science industry? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/16 "2013-12-06T20:24:37Z")
Asheville has a reputation for being Berkeley East. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/17 "2013-12-06T20:29:17Z")
I suspect many college towns would fit the bill. I used to live in Princeton (not cheap, but cheaper than SF) which was pretty good. Then I moved to a small town not far away which was filled with people from the various research centers nearby. So, move to places with jobs for the kind of people you want to be near, and you’ll find them. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/18 "2013-12-06T21:29:44Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > And if you want to live in Arcata, you better like peace and quiet, and preferably bring your job with you. Beautiful place though. Therein lies the problem with a lot of these cities. A place like San Francisco is expensive because it has both the lifestyle amenities and a job market that’s strong enough to support the high cost of living. A lot of the (especially smaller) cities on this list have the lifestyle but don’t really have enough of the sorts of jobs that the sorts of people who want to live there want. The phrase “where young people go to retire” was coined about Portland, but it applies to a lot of these cities. They’re havens for young educated people, but that makes getting entry-level jobs in most educated fields is near impossible. A lot of times, that doesn’t stop them, though, and they end up spending the next decade waiting tables instead. Working a low paying job in a place that’s great to live in can be a perfectly nice existence, but it also kind of limits your career paths. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/19 "2013-12-07T03:17:12Z")
Columbus, OH is another city worth investigating. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cheaper-alternatives-to-san-francisco/674585/20 "2013-12-07T15:55:19Z")
> [@Sudden\_Kestrel](#): > > Minneapolis used to embody many of those attributes. I haven’t lived there for a decade, so I don’t know if it still does. > > A smaller Minnesota city like that would be Northfield, home of Carleton and St. Olaf colleges. Lots of coffeehouses, co-ops, free concerts, and social justice orgs. I live in the 'burbs. The Twin Cities, like any larger city, has a lot of neighborhoods, but many of them have a very hippie vibe. Diverse, liberal, good quality of life. A lot of the inner city is pretty poor - you aren’t talking about well educated professionals, but its a big(ish) city. Now, the 'burbs - In my neighborhood I’m more likely to have seen Obama lawn signs than Romney lawn signs, but I border the district that elected Michelle Bachman.