# Are there Christian sects that cast out Paul's teachings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 21, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757 "2020-01-21T17:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/21 "2020-01-24T21:19:24Z")
Emanuel Swedenborg did not deny that Paul was an apostle but he and the church he founded (The New Church or Swedenborgian Church which is still around in various forms) rejected his doctrine and teachings. There is even the suggestion in some of his writings that Paul resides in Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/22 "2020-01-24T21:40:51Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > There seems to be some confusion between disciples and apostles. The disciples were the original 12 men chosen by Jesus to be with him during his entire (albeit brief) ministry on earth. The apostles were the men who carried on to spread the Word after his departure. Saul was actually an agent for the Roman government during Christ’s ministry, certainly not one of the chosen 12. He was, in fact, converted to Christianity on the road to Damascus. He was best known for preaching to the Gentiles because he WAS a Gentile and not a Jew. There were many disciples of Jesus while he was on Earth. He chose the Twelve over a period of time from the large group of disciples that followed and learned from him. Many of his disciples came to him from John the Baptist’s disciples. He eventually commissioned his 12 closest disciples as the Twelve Apostles. Apostles go out and spread a message, disciples are followers or students. Some of his disciples later became apostles, including the Twelve. But when taking about the Twelve Disciples or Twelve Apostles, the key word, I believe, is Twelve. They were the chosen 12 among many other disciples and apostles. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/23 "2020-01-25T04:17:29Z")
What is the canonical numerology behind 12? Why were 12 apostles chosen, and not 15 or 8? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/24 "2020-01-25T04:33:45Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > What is the canonical numerology behind 12? Why were 12 apostles chosen, and not 15 or 8? 12 sons of Jacob who founded the 12 tribes of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/25 "2020-01-25T06:10:36Z")
Not answering the OP at all, but Mandaeism is a religion that reveres "Adam, Abel, Seth, Enos, Noah, Shem, Aram, and especially John the Baptist (Jesus’ buddy), but not Jesus himself. Caodaism similarly likes an eclectic bunch of figures. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/26 "2020-01-25T10:08:22Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > There were many disciples of Jesus while he was on Earth. He chose the Twelve over a period of time from the large group of disciples that followed and learned from him. Many of his disciples came to him from John the Baptist’s disciples. He eventually commissioned his 12 closest disciples as the Twelve Apostles. > > Apostles go out and spread a message, disciples are followers or students. Some of his disciples later became apostles, including the Twelve. > > But when taking about the Twelve Disciples or Twelve Apostles, the key word, I believe, is Twelve. They were the chosen 12 among many other disciples and apostles. In Luke 10:1-24, there’s a reference to 72 Disciples. I’m not sure whether this is the second stratum of followers or if the 72 includes the 12 Apostles, but when Matthias was tapped (by the main 12) to replace Judas, I assume this is the pool he was selected from. Wiki mentions some later Apostles: Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia, Silas, Timothy and Apollos. These are mentioned ONLY in the Pauline letters, not the Gospels, so I’m guessing they never got shown the fraternity handshake either. It looks like Paul authorized his own apostolic lineage. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/27 "2020-01-25T14:52:40Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > I have never heard any Christian, mainstream or otherwise, say the apostles made a mistake when they chose Matthias to replace Judas, or that he wasn’t a “real apostle.” Read Acts 1:21-26. It’s pretty clear they were looking for someone who had been with them the whole time Jesus was ministering on Earth, from his baptism to his ascension. Paul never came close to fitting the bill. Plus, the apostles’ prayer before casting lots makes it pretty clear that (from a Christian’s perspective), Christ himself, or the Holy Spirit made the final choice. > > I also find it dubious that anyone considers Paul to be one of the 12, because he wasn’t. Neither was Luke or Silas or Barnabas. They were early church leaders, apostles and missionaries. But Paul wasn’t even a follower of Christ when they chose Judas’ replacement. Why did they NEED a replacement? Was there some special significance to the number 12 that they needed to make up a quorum (or a _minyan_) for their collective to have legitimacy? BTW, are there any tales about the guy[s] Matthias beat out? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/28 "2020-01-25T14:54:50Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > What is the canonical numerology behind 12? Why were 12 apostles chosen, and not 15 or 8? The 12 apostles would judge over the 12 tribes of israel. So that’s the reason apparently for why there was 12 apostles, however it doesn’t answer the question why 12 tribes. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/29 "2020-01-25T15:35:58Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/30 "2020-01-25T16:55:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Why did they NEED a replacement? Was there some special significance to the number 12 that they needed to make up a quorum (or a _minyan_) for their collective to have legitimacy? > > BTW, are there any tales about the guy[s] Matthias beat out? I wonder if he was even the last. Maybe they recruited a new apostle every time an old one died or defected, and there’s a continuation to the present day? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/31 "2020-01-25T17:25:05Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I wonder if he was even the last. Maybe they recruited a new apostle every time an old one died or defected, and there’s a continuation to the present day? IIUC the Roman Catholic Church considers the popes to be the line of succession from Peter (of the original Twelve); but I haven’t heard of any of the other apostles having a continuous line of successors. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/32 "2020-01-26T08:44:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The 12 apostles would judge over the 12 tribes of israel. So that’s the reason apparently for why there was 12 apostles, however it doesn’t answer the question why 12 tribes. How many tribes should there have been? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/33 "2020-01-26T13:22:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How many tribes should there have been? Biblically it appears to be 12 - though IDK the reason for 12. I’ve heard one telling that 13 may be a answer - but really 12, as in one of the known 12 is false (such as Judas was a false apostle - basically put there by the enemy). With this, there was both one tribe of Israel and also one apostle displaced by this. That false tribe is apparently the tribe of Levi - the tribe who was the religious ruling class, the one that Jesus identified as sons of the devil, and also like the false apostle Judas in control of the money. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/34 "2020-01-26T15:46:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Biblically it appears to be 12 - though IDK the reason for 12. > > I’ve heard one telling that 13 may be a answer - but really 12, as in one of the known 12 is false (such as Judas was a false apostle - basically put there by the enemy). With this, there was both one tribe of Israel and also one apostle displaced by this. > > That false tribe is apparently the tribe of Levi - the tribe who was the religious ruling class, the one that Jesus identified as sons of the devil, and also like the false apostle Judas in control of the money. It goes back to Genesis and the biblical patriarch Jacob, who was literally renamed Israel by god and had 12 sons whose issue and descendants would would go on to form the 12 tribes, with the Levites (from Levi) not having lands as they were designated to provide priests. > **[Jacob](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob#Biblical_family_tree)** > > Jacob (/ˈdʒeɪkəb/; Hebrew: יַעֲקֹב, Modern: Yaʿaqōvⓘ, Tiberian: Yaʿăqōḇ; Arabic: يَعْقُوب, romanized: Yaʿqūb; Greek: Ἰακώβ, romanized: Iakṓb), later given the name Israel, is regarded as a patriarch of the Israelites and is an important figure in Abrahamic religions, such as Judaism, Samaritanism, Christianity, and Islam. Jacob first appears in the Book of Genesis, originating from the Hebrew tradition in the Torah. Described as the son of Isaac and Rebecca, and the grandson of Abraham, Sarah, Not that any of that ever happened, but that’s the story in the OT. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/35 "2020-01-26T16:02:31Z")
As an aside, The Gospel of Judas (2nd century) describes Judas as the bestest disciple, not a false one, but I’m not sure the Gnostic Christians had any specific problem with Paul or vice versa? This was mentioned above but not in detail. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/36 "2020-01-26T19:59:06Z")
There almost certainly were in the earliest times, during Paul’s life. We have, as example, early works chronicling the dispute between Cerinthus and Paul. Those groups would likely have had some writings, presuming that it’s true that the apostles wrote down everything they could remember as soon as Jesus died. At the worst case, they would have had access to the real apostles. But they wouldn’t have had a formulated “Bible”. Over time, these groups matured and do seem to have standardized a bit. I might posit that the most advanced form of these would be the [Elkasaites](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcesaites): > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Hippolytus of Rome (Refutation of All Heresies, IX, 8-13) records that in the time of Pope Callixtus I (217–222 AD), a Jewish Christian called Alcibiades of Apamea came to Rome, bringing a book which he said had been received in Parthia by a just man named Elchasai.[2] According to Alcibiades, the book had been revealed by an angel ninety-six miles high, sixteen miles broad and twenty-four across the shoulders, whose footprints were fourteen miles long and four miles wide by two miles deep. This giant angel was the Son of God, who was accompanied by His Sister, the Holy Ghost, of the same dimensions.[3] Alcibiades announced that a new remission of sins had been proclaimed in the third year of Trajan (AD 100), and he described a baptism which should impart this forgiveness even to the grossest sinners. > > Hippolytus’ commentary starts in Book 9 Chapter 8.[4] In his next section, Hippolytus recounts that Alcibiades teaches the natural birth, preexistence and reincarnation of Jesus which may relate, per Louis Ginzberg (1906) to the kabbalistic concept of Adam Kadmon,[5] and also that Alcibiades teaches circumcision and the Law of Moses.[4] Hippolytus then goes on at length to describe the group’s teaching on baptism. For all sins of impurity, even against nature, a second baptism is enjoined “in the name of the great and most high God and in the name of His Son the great King”, with an adjuration of the seven witnesses written in the book (sky, water, the holy spirits, the angels of prayer, oil, salt and earth). One who has been bitten by a mad dog is to run to the nearest water and jump in with all his clothes on, using the foregoing formula, and promising the seven witnesses that he will abstain from sin. The same treatment – forty days consecutively of baptism in cold water – is recommended for consumption and for the possessed.[4] In his Chapter 11, Hippolytus discusses in more detail the teaching of the book including Elchasai’s Sabbatarian teaching and the instruction not to baptise under certain astrological stars.[4] Hippolytus concludes his review of the Elcesaites in Refutations Book 10, Ch.12 with a general exhortation to avoid heresy which gives away no more information.[4] We can directly trace, through small and scattered references, some (and likely most) of the church of Jerusalem to the Elkasaites, [Essenes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes), and [Nazoreans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)). There’s decent evidence (for low values of decency) that St. Thomas traveled between what would be modern day Armenia and Western India, teaching a form of Christianity from before Paul’s influence touched it. However… _In my personal read of the situation_, in the early years of Christianity around the Mediterranean, we basically had three major centers of the religion, Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch. Early on, in Egypt, we see some ascetics and such who might have been non-Pauline, but they seem to have been pushed out from Alexandria (see the Desert Fathers and Mothers) and replaced with Pauline adherents in the city. In Antioch, while there was some early struggle between Cerinthus and Paul, there does seem to have been an effort made to go along with the ordains of the Council of Jerusalem and accept that Paul was indeed a revelatory apostle and that his teachings and those understood by Jesus in-person apostles needed to be unified into a single, compromise doctrine. Antioch had the misfortune (I assume) of having more documentation of known authenticity from the in-person apostles and regularly schismed, leading eventually to the [Nestorian Crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Schism) But two against three (Alexandria and Rome against Antioch), the vote went against the Nestorians and their expulsion largely ended any divide in the Mediterranean area. Having been expelled, though, the Nestorians seem to have migrated over into the same area that St. Thomas had taught in. Plausibly, that whole area had been keeping up with Antioch teaching the whole duration. In either case, the best we have found from India is [a document](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Diamper) written by the Spanish, who had come in and conquered the region, detailing all of the books they were burning that had been forming the basis of the Christian religion there. The majority of those works seem to be, clearly, Nestorian - e.g. likely 5th century or later. The Syriac and Hebrew works (ignoring the one about Nestorian priests) would be the most likely to have a history dating back to the 2nd century, but it would be impossible to say much without the actual works to reference. The Exposition of the Gospels sounds to me like it’s probably something from the 150-300 range. It sounds like a work based on research not personal knowledge, but research done early enough that there were still sources surviving from which one could confidently\* make such claims and of sufficient variety as to make that wideness of claims. In the Arabic regions, we have continued tales along the lines of the Elkasaites. Manichaeism is often treated, from what I can tell, as the largely novel work of [Mani](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)). But, as best I recall, it seemed largely parallel to most descriptions of the much earlier Elkasaites. I believe that Mani was raised in an Elkasaite home, so it’s probably more fair to say that he was a popular Elkasaite teacher whose own works were probably grafted into the religion. I believe that I was also able to trace, at some point, either Mani or Elkasai (I think it was Elkasai given the Arabic name - Al-Qasai) over to Armenia or India through some Arabic sources. We can probably expect the Elkasaite/Manichaean religions to be somewhat similar to what St. Thomas preached. Through a variety discovered caches of documents plus small quotations and descriptions that have come down through the ages, we have a variety of writings that are likely non-Pauline. But the presumption that they are non-Pauline largely comes from the presumption that there was a schism, that we are tracing that schism, and that the schism was related to the differences of belief between the Jewish church and the Pauline church. But, not finding Paul in the scraps of documents and descriptions that we have, you can’t say authoritatively that Paul won’t appear in the next one we discover. Something like the Nestorian documents, which are explicitly anti-Rome, we can certainly say have no intention of having any Pauline influence but we can’t be certain that they didn’t gain something from him (nor from others) over the centuries. And due to what seems to have been a genuine intent to form a compromise religion very early on, and regular destruction (and loss) of documents though the millennia, very little that we can reliably say is very old has survived. And anyone on the Orthodox side of things will argue that the dates for those should be very late, basing it on claims like that Gnostics didn’t exist in the 1st century - regardless that early Christian writers of the early 2nd century wrote about 1st century Gnostics. If you simply want a list of works that seem liable to inform you of what non-Pauline Christianity would look like, I could probably put one together. But you would really need to read through all of it and try to determine what parts seem consistent, on your own. I’m not, personally, terribly interested in the teachings of Jesus. There are specific things like vegetarianism and asceticism that seem sufficiently documented over a sufficiently large area in places that seem to owe their influence to the non-Pauline apostles - and are readily identifiable in the materials - that they’re useful to help identify camps, and use that to identify more camps. But there’s sufficient difference in more esoteric theology that trying to work out the original is more of a PITA than I would care to commit to for something that is, at the end of the day, in my mind just nonsense mysticism. My interest is simply to determine the history of who did what, when, and how that moved across the map. But here, for example, is something that seems like a fairly trustworthy early document that Paul seems unlikely to endorse: [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Didache\_(Lightfoot\_translation)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Didache_(Lightfoot_translation)) If you want more, I’ll try to follow up later. - Confidence == Correctness ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/37 "2020-01-27T19:39:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I believe that I was also able to trace, at some point, either Mani or Elkasai (I think it was Elkasai given the Arabic name - Al-Qasai) over to Armenia or India through some Arabic sources. I figured out what I was thinking of. I believed that I had identified that Bardaisan is plausibly the person later called Elkasai (al-khasai / the hidden god). Personal hypothesis, not fact. But his work would be a good example of (as best I can tell) non-Pauline Christian belief: > **[Bardaisan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardaisan)** > > Bardaisan (11 July 154 – 222 AD; Syriac: ܒܪ ܕܝܨܢ, Bar Dayṣān; also Bardaiṣan), known in Arabic as ibn Dayṣān (Arabic: ابن ديصان) and in Latin as Bardesanes, was a Syriac-speaking Assyrian Christian writer and teacher with a gnostic background, and founder of the Bardaisanites. > A scientist, scholar, astrologer, philosopher, hymnwriter, and poet, Bardaisan was also renowned for his knowledge of India, on which he wrote a book, now lost. According to the early Christian historian Eusebius, Bardai... > **[CHURCH FATHERS: The Laws of Various Countries (Bardesanes)](https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0862.htm)** > > Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/38 "2020-01-30T18:07:13Z")
It would appear that [Positive Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity) may fit the bill for the OP’s question. That said, it’s unclear to what extent Positive Christianity was a genuine religion altogether, since the driving force was largely the subversion of Christianity into Nazi ideology, and it failed to supplant Christianity in Germany as intended. My guess is that while it didn’t catch on to nearly the extent the Nazi leadership intended, it probably had some mass following to one extent or another. But I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/39 "2020-01-30T20:20:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It would appear that [Positive Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity) may fit the bill for the OP’s question. > > That said, it’s unclear to what extent Positive Christianity was a genuine religion altogether, since the driving force was largely the subversion of Christianity into Nazi ideology, and it failed to supplant Christianity in Germany as intended. My guess is that while it didn’t catch on to nearly the extent the Nazi leadership intended, it probably had some mass following to one extent or another. But I don’t know. Bee-czar If you get rid of all the Jewish written parts of the Bible, that doesn’t leave you with much. Luke, minus any quotes from Jesus, and a couple of letters? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757/40 "2020-01-31T15:19:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you get rid of all the Jewish written parts of the Bible, that doesn’t leave you with much. Luke, minus any quotes from Jesus, and a couple of letters? Not really. I think one of the core premises of this religious was that Jesus wasn’t Jewish altogether. The sense I get is that they believed that Jesus was a tough guy rebel and rabble-rouser, which they identified with, but that Paul had subverted that approach into this Nice Guy turn-the-other-cheek Christianity which was incompatible with Nazi ideology and attitudes. [More from Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler): > [@](#): > > According to Table Talk, Hitler believed that Jesus’ true Christian teachings had been corrupted by the apostle St Paul, who had transformed them into a kind of Jewish Bolshevism, which Hitler believed preached “the equality of all men amongst themselves, and their obedience to an only god. This is what caused the death of the Roman Empire.” > > In Table Talk, Hitler praised Julian the Apostate’s Three Books Against the Galilaeans, an anti-Christian tract from AD 362, in the entry dated 21 October 1941, stating: “When one thinks of the opinions held concerning Christianity by our best minds a hundred, two hundred years ago, one is ashamed to realise how little we have since evolved. I didn’t know that Julian the Apostate had passed judgment with such clear-sightedness on Christianity and Christians. … Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry… and it’s certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore—of a whore and a Roman soldier. The decisive falsification of Jesus’s doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galilean’s object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that’s why the Jews liquidated Him. Paul of Tarsus (his name was Saul, before the road to Damascus) was one of those who persecuted Jesus most savagely.” > [@](#): > > The diaries also report that Hitler believed Jesus “also wanted to act against the Jewish world domination. Jewry had him crucified. But Paul falsified his doctrine and undermined ancient Rome.” > [@](#): > > Hitler backed the formal establishment of the “German Christians” in 1932. It was nationalistic and anti-Semitic and some of its radicals called for repudiation of the Old Testament (the Hebrew Scriptures) and the Pauline epistles of the New Testament—because of their Jewish authorship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-christian-sects-that-cast-out-pauls-teachings/846757.md?page=3)