# Are there cultures that don't go out of their way to "think of the children"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 31, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476 "2014-07-31T11:50:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/1 "2014-07-31T11:50:25Z")
In modern America (and probably most “Western” countries), kids are thought of needing special protection, and there are a variety of laws and social customs meant to protect them. A recent example: adult Palestinians routinely die and nobody really cares, but some kids die and the UN is up in arms about it. Is this view of kids a relatively modern phenomenon, afforded by the economic and physical safety of a post-agrarian, post-industrial society where families could afford kids as luxuries, not to add to their household productivity? In societies where children are raised to provide additional income or labor for the family, are they less valued? What about infant mortality rates, religions, or preferences for male children? In a nutshell: Where we live, it is abhorrent to even imagine harming children. In other times past, children were routinely murdered, sacrificed, sold, etc. by cultures that thought nothing of it – those acts were not considered morally heinous. Are there any cultures still around today that do not value children highly? ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/2 "2014-07-31T12:04:25Z")
There’s no simple answer because you’ve asked a very complex question. Yes, childhood is a fairly modern concept, rooted in a relatively advanced level of economic development, urbanization, public education, and so forth. Most arguments with respect to culture (e.g. that the protective view of children is a specifically western phenomenon) boil down to economic arguments. When given the choice, most parents throughout the world choose not to subject their children to back-breaking and dangerous labor that deprives them of any chance at education. While children are treated horribly everywhere, there’s a fair degree of international consensus on how they _ought_ to be treated, at least at the level of general norms and national elites. The only two countries not to have ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child are the United States and Somalia. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/3 "2014-07-31T12:41:38Z")
In most political cultures when they scamming for votes. They always “Thinking of the children”, bullshit that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/4 "2014-07-31T17:24:58Z")
It also depends on what you mean by "protection. [In ancient Greece](http://www.ancient.eu.com/article/483/)both male and female children were educated, and entrusted to the care of a mentor. Of course, the mentor was allowed to have sex with them. The [Romans](http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/17267596/child-welfare-ancient-rome)at least made an effort to make sure poor and orphaned children received food. During the [Han dynasty in China](http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/187) mothers were given instruction on how to raide their children, although that seems to be more for the benefit of the state than the welfare of the child. ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/5 "2014-07-31T17:53:25Z")
You might want to read up on “tiger moms”. AIUI in some Asian cultures the attitude is more that children can withstand a lot, than that they need special protection. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/6 "2014-07-31T17:53:31Z")
Intrauterine Growth Restriction occurs when both twins in the uterus cannot get enough sustenance for proper prenatal growth. Medical science considers, in such cases, that Siblicide is the best outcome. The stronger of more advantaged twin literally kill his sibling, in order to keep the limited uterine environment for himself. Children that our culture does not “think of” in the survival at any cost context. There is always a line drawn somewhere. I have not heard any political party weigh in on this topic (inexplicably), nor to lobby for legislation to force intervention and try to medically equalize the nutrition of both fetuses, to the disadvantage of both of them. It turns out that I was a siblicidal twin, and my sibling was emaciated and stillborn, enabling me to have a normal prenatal development. My step-daughter (no blood relation to me) also gave birth to a single healthy twin and a tiny wasted stillborn sibling. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/7 "2014-08-01T09:22:05Z")
I’d say the child soldiers and child slaves in Africa (and Asia, for slaves) certainly show that there are cultures that don’t place any special protections on children. ---
**Author:** ![Bootsy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/49beb7/32.png) [@Bootsy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootsy)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/8 "2014-08-01T09:35:43Z")
I should think of course, having children can be a means to better your own life in a selfish sense as in to send them out to work or beg, but then you can have children for all sorts of reasons and use them for all sorts of ends, I’ve heard stories of babies being left in the road so cars stop and the occupants can then be robbed, also of children being mutilated so they can be higher earning beggars. How many people have children so the child can have a good life? Sad truth is not many probably ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/9 "2014-08-01T09:45:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d say the child soldiers and child slaves in Africa (and Asia, for slaves) certainly show that there are cultures that don’t place any special protections on children. :rolleyes: Like Drummer boys, or sailing boys in pre 20th century armies showed that European cultures gave two shits for children? Tp answer the OP, I think all cultures have “a think of the Children” mentality. Its ingrained into the human DNA, IMHOANSO. But, cultures do disagree on what exactly constitutes “welfare” and what one culture deems harmless, others think of as abuse. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/10 "2014-08-01T10:44:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Like Drummer boys, or sailing boys in pre 20th century armies showed that European cultures gave two shits for children? Assuming you mean “didn’t give two shits”, then yes, that’s exactly what they show. As in, “didn’t give any special consideration to the minor status of”. Ditto with coal mine labour, or similar. > [@](#): > > Tp answer the OP, I think all cultures have “a think of the Children” mentality. Its ingrained into the human DNA, IMHOANSO. But, cultures do disagree on what exactly constitutes “welfare” and what one culture deems harmless, others think of as abuse. I think most cultures only have a “think of _our own_ children” mentality, meaning close relations. Other children might as well be adults, and will be treated the same way. Or worse, because they can’t defend themselves as well. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/11 "2014-08-01T13:02:40Z")
North Korea. In propaganda, yes. In practice, not so much. Of course Kim Jung un doesn’t really give a damn about any one but himself. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/12 "2014-08-01T13:19:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Tp answer the OP, I think all cultures have “a think of the Children” mentality. Its ingrained into the human DNA, IMHOANSO. But, cultures do disagree on what exactly constitutes “welfare” and what one culture deems harmless, others think of as abuse. Plus divergent definitions of what constitutes “children”. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/13 "2014-08-01T14:43:31Z")
The idea that anyone over puberty was still a child is a very recent one. Like, within my lifetime recent. I’ve seen people talk about college students as still being children! That’s light years away from the “You’re sixteen, you’re beautiful, and you’re mine” mentality of just a generation or two ago. But then I think that in the US, people couldn’t vote until they were 21 until the 1970s. If children (literal children) could work 80 hours a week in a coal mine and smoke cigarettes and drink beer in 1900, why the hell couldn’t they vote? So things aren’t as cut and dried as “we used to think this way, but now we don’t”. ---
**Author:** ![ZurBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71e660/32.png) [@ZurBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZurBob)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/14 "2014-08-01T18:34:15Z")
I find it interesting and somewhat aggravating, that our culture (in the USA) is rapidly becoming “all about the children”. There seems to be a trend developing whereas: The primary function of the adult is to cater to every whim of the child… to provide it with an environment that fosters a notion that the entire world revolves around the child. It is amazing that our attitude toward children has evolved so rapidly. Just a few generations ago, children were considered not much above beasts of burden… Now, if a child encounters the slightest disappointment in their day, it is considered a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/15 "2014-08-01T19:30:29Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > While children are treated horribly everywhere, there’s a fair degree of international consensus on how they _ought_ to be treated, at least at the level of general norms and national elites. The only two countries not to have ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child are the United States and Somalia. This inspired me to google some things (although I suspected I knew the answer). For what it’s worth, the US has _signed_ the Convention, but not ratified it. The objections are about what you’d expect - Constitutional conflict and sovereignty concerns. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.\_ratification\_of\_the\_Convention\_on\_the\_Rights\_of\_the\_Child#Opposition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._ratification_of_the_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child#Opposition) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/16 "2014-08-03T05:10:32Z")
I’d say Cambodia. I read where that if your kid dies from a disease or accident they just shrug and go make another. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/17 "2014-08-03T10:08:07Z")
If you’re interested in that sort of thing, a book that gives an enormous overview of the ways different cultures approach childhood is given in _[The Anthropology of Childhood: Cherubs, Chattel, Changelings](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Go7ulSOEKEUC&dq=children+chattel+cherub&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sAXeU73cB6eaygOW94K4DQ&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA)_. Lancy looks at a huge amount of different cultures. I’m not going to dig up the book but, for a strange example, he mentions a tribe where they take the two babies by the hand and make them slap each other. They do this until they learn to fight. They literally start this when they are babies who can’t yet stand! I did get the overall impression that children were universally loved and cherished and seen as valuable. Just in different ways, and in ways that we don’t always recognise. We would surely say “won’t someone think of the children” about the children being made to slap each other, but they _are_ thinking of the children. They might shake their heads at our nancy children who we didn’t properly teach how to fight. “Won’t someone think of the children?!” ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/18 "2014-08-03T12:05:08Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > This inspired me to google some things (although I suspected I knew the answer). For what it’s worth, the US has _signed_ the Convention, but not ratified it. The objections are about what you’d expect - Constitutional conflict and sovereignty concerns. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.\_ratification\_of\_the\_Convention\_on\_the\_Rights\_of\_the\_Child#Opposition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._ratification_of_the_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child#Opposition) There are no genuine constitutional or sovereignty concerns. If there were, they could be dealt with through reservations. There is a small but passionate group of conservative religious folks who see the convention as undermining the authority of parents and promoting government intervention in family life. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/19 "2014-08-03T14:28:30Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > If you’re interested in that sort of thing, a book that gives an enormous overview of the ways different cultures approach childhood is given in _[The Anthropology of Childhood: Cherubs, Chattel, Changelings](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Go7ulSOEKEUC&dq=children+chattel+cherub&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sAXeU73cB6eaygOW94K4DQ&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA)_. Lancy looks at a huge amount of different cultures. > > I’m not going to dig up the book but, for a strange example, he mentions a tribe where they take the two babies by the hand and make them slap each other. They do this until they learn to fight. They literally start this when they are babies who can’t yet stand! > > I did get the overall impression that children were universally loved and cherished and seen as valuable. Just in different ways, and in ways that we don’t always recognise. We would surely say “won’t someone think of the children” about the children being made to slap each other, but they _are_ thinking of the children. They might shake their heads at our nancy children who we didn’t properly teach how to fight. “Won’t someone think of the children?!” Cool, thanks! Just ordered a copy. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476/20 "2014-08-03T14:58:53Z")
If we look to nature, we find some species do care and protect their young and some do not. I can’t say that mammals universally care for their young, but certainly a vast majority of mammal species do for some period of time. But the question isn’t whether humans naturally care and protect children, the question is whether there are cultures that don’t. For the largest populations which ascribe a cultural norm, then yes, they do, or they wouldn’t be large. However, it’s not hard to find “micro-cultures” that do not care for children, the culture of drug dealing at Middle Schools, the culture of murdering as many people as possible, the culture of genocide are a few examples. So the answer is “yes”, there are cultures that don’t go out of their way to protect their children. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-cultures-that-dont-go-out-of-their-way-to-think-of-the-children/694476.md?page=2)