# Are there examples (bef. Borussia Dortmund bomber) of crimes of violence done for stock market gain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 21, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908 "2017-04-21T10:09:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/1 "2017-04-21T10:09:49Z")
Today 21 April a suspect in the 11 April 2017 bomb attack on the Borussia Dortmund football/soccer team has been arrested in the town where I work. [Prosecutors say he hoped to maim or kill valuable players to profit from put options he purchased on the team’s publicly traded stock](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39664212). Is this a first or are there other examples where crimes of violence have been done in order to depress a stock’s value, for the perpetrator to profit? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/2 "2017-04-21T13:31:23Z")
It might be the first time it’s been done primarily for that motive, but just prior to the September 11 attacks, there were some individuals heavily short-selling airline stock (that is to say, betting that something would cause airline stock to drop dramatically in price). ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/3 "2017-04-21T13:55:59Z")
That’s a plot line in Grand Theft Auto V. Only in the game you had to buy a bunch of shares, assassinate the competitor’s CEO, wait a week or so to avoid suspicion, and then profit! I figure most of that game is an extreme version of real life crimes. Which makes me think there were at least one or two real life crimes with similar motives that inspired the game. But maybe someone just had a devious imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/4 "2017-04-21T14:09:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It might be the first time it’s been done primarily for that motive, but just prior to the September 11 attacks, there were some individuals heavily short-selling airline stock (that is to say, betting that something would cause airline stock to drop dramatically in price). [According to Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp), there was no nefarious motivation behind short-selling of airline stock prior to 9/11. “Nefarious” meaning pre-knowledge of the attacks or being an actual conspirator. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/5 "2017-04-21T14:16:04Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > Today 21 April a suspect in the 11 April 2017 bomb attack on the Borussia Dortmund football/soccer team has been arrested in the town where I work. > > [Prosecutors say he hoped to maim or kill valuable players to profit from put options he purchased on the team’s publicly traded stock](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39664212). > > Is this a first or are there other examples where crimes of violence have been done in order to depress a stock’s value, for the perpetrator to profit? Just a couple of months ago [a guy was arrested for a plan to bomb Target stores](http://fortune.com/2017/02/17/target-stock-bomb-florida/) in an attempt to depress their stock prices so he could buy it low and (later) sell it high. He got as far as crafting IEDs and giving them to an associate for deployment. Said associate instead promptly went to the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/6 "2017-04-21T14:21:29Z")
There was an incident just 2 months ago, when someone was arrested for [planning to bomb Target stores](http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2017/02/17/Florida-man-planned-to-bomb-Target-stores-for-stock-market-play-Police/8561487332266/), allegedly to manipulate its stock price. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/7 "2017-04-21T14:33:24Z")
I do wonder sometimes if some of the bigger hacks of credit card databases and customer data are due to people who just want to the corporation in question to take a PR hit, rather than people who want to use all those CC numbers and customer addresses. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/8 "2017-04-21T17:14:00Z")
Depending on what counts as “crimes of violence” and whether you care if the perpetrator acted alone or was part of a corporation, there are plenty of examples. The “[Banana wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars)” might count. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/9 "2017-04-21T17:29:29Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I do wonder sometimes if some of the bigger hacks of credit card databases and customer data are due to people who just want to the corporation in question to take a PR hit, rather than people who want to use all those CC numbers and customer addresses. Interesting idea. But for that to work the bad guys would have to ensure the word gets out. Historically businesses would do all they could to cover those breaches up. I’m not up on the current status of legislation requiring prompt and complete disclosure. Nor the enforcement of same. I’m also not all that confident every big business could detect such a theft. You can’t admit to something you genuinely haven’t discovered. If the bad guys wanted to profit on stock manipulation they need to control the timing of the publicity about the discovery. Bad guys issuing a press release “Neener neener, we have 50 million credit cards we filched from Walmart” solves the timing problem but runs the risk of the press release becoming the clue that leads back to the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/10 "2017-04-21T17:42:13Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Just a couple of months ago [a guy was arrested for a plan to bomb Target stores](http://fortune.com/2017/02/17/target-stock-bomb-florida/) in an attempt to depress their stock prices so he could buy it low and (later) sell it high. He got as far as crafting IEDs and giving them to an associate for deployment. Said associate instead promptly went to the authorities. This guy has a really poor idea about how the stock market works. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/11 "2017-04-21T17:49:37Z")
There was a suggestion in the media many many moons ago that the infamous “Tylenol tampering” which killed several people back in the 1980’s was done so someone could profit off the anticipated stock drop. I don’t recall there was any concrete proof of that. The net result is that we got tamper-proof sealed products. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/12 "2017-04-21T18:08:17Z")
Every time I see the Borussia Dortmund bomb story, I think of the Name Game song. Russia, Russia, Borussia, fee, fi …🙂 Sorry, I’ll let you return to serious discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/13 "2017-04-21T20:09:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It might be the first time it’s been done primarily for that motive, but just prior to the September 11 attacks, there were some individuals heavily short-selling airline stock (that is to say, betting that something would cause airline stock to drop dramatically in price). FTR: OP is _exactly_ a main plank in over a century of anti-Semitic myth making. Imagine the example of **Chronos** but held as a certainty that ALL major wars (“crimes of violence”) and subsequent market forces have been abetted by Rothschilds and other Jews, including me. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/14 "2017-04-21T20:17:40Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > This guy has a really poor idea about how the stock market works. 😕 Why would it not have worked? If a dozen bombs go off, with a gap of a few days between each one, wouldn’t shareholders be expected to sell (thereby depressing share prices), given their expectation that fearful shoppers would stay out of stores? To be fair, it might not have been a very big drop. Worst case, maybe several percent if it’s a sustained bombing campaign. So he would have expected to make only those few percent after the share price rebounds (and he sells his cheaply bought shares). Wait, did I just answer my own question? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/15 "2017-04-21T20:27:54Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > There was a suggestion in the media many many moons ago that the infamous “Tylenol tampering” which killed several people back in the 1980’s was done so someone could profit off the anticipated stock drop. I don’t recall there was any concrete proof of that. The net result is that we got tamper-proof sealed products. suggestion? the guy admitted that was why he did it it … the person who turned him in also said that’s why he did it… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/16 "2017-04-21T20:41:36Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > suggestion? the guy admitted that was why he did it it … the person who turned him in also said that’s why he did it… From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tylenol_murders): > [@](#): > > No suspect was ever charged or convicted of the poisonings. New York City resident James William Lewis was considered the prime suspect, and was convicted of extortion for sending a letter to Johnson & Johnson that took credit for the deaths and demanded $1 million to stop them… > > During the initial investigations, a man named James William Lewis sent a letter to Johnson & Johnson demanding $1 million to stop the cyanide-induced murders. Police were unable to link him with the crimes, as he and his wife were living in New York City at the time. He was convicted of extortion, served 13 years of a 20-year sentence, and was released in 1995 on parole. WCVB Channel 5 of Boston reported that court documents, released in early 2009, “show Department of Justice investigators concluded Lewis was responsible for the poisonings, despite the fact that they did not have enough evidence to charge him”. Lewis has denied responsibility for the poisonings for several years.[7][8] ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/17 "2017-04-21T20:42:31Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > 😕 Why would it not have worked? If a dozen bombs go off, with a gap of a few days between each one, wouldn’t shareholders be expected to sell (thereby depressing share prices), given their expectation that fearful shoppers would stay out of stores? > > To be fair, it might not have been a very big drop. Worst case, maybe several percent if it’s a sustained bombing campaign. So he would have expected to make only those few percent after the share price rebounds (and he sells his cheaply bought shares). > > Wait, did I just answer my own question? :dubious: Because the best way to profit from that kind of thing isn’t to buy cheaply after the event and wait for recovery, the way to profit from that is by using options before the event. You can buy puts before the event and make many times the profit that can be made by buying the stock afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![femmejean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/0ea827/32.png) [@femmejean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/femmejean)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/18 "2017-04-21T20:46:59Z")
9/11? :rolleyes::rolleyes: that’s a floating theory among conspiracy theorists… But on a serious note, some more knowledgable dopers can confirm that there was insider trading of airline stocks. Don’t know whether that’s true or not. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/19 "2017-04-21T22:16:47Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Because the best way to profit from that kind of thing isn’t to buy cheaply after the event and wait for recovery, the way to profit from that is by using options before the event. You can buy puts before the event and make many times the profit that can be made by buying the stock afterwards. A big put like that will stand out like a sore thumb to the regulators, though. Buying stock after the fact probably has a better chance of sneaking under the radar. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908/20 "2017-04-21T22:30:26Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > This guy has a really poor idea about how the stock market works. > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > 😕 Why would it not have worked? If a dozen bombs go off, with a gap of a few days between each one, wouldn’t shareholders be expected to sell (thereby depressing share prices), given their expectation that fearful shoppers would stay out of stores? > > To be fair, it might not have been a very big drop. Worst case, maybe several percent if it’s a sustained bombing campaign. So he would have expected to make only those few percent after the share price rebounds (and he sells his cheaply bought shares). > > Wait, did I just answer my own question? :dubious: Putting out a large short ahead of the bombing would be suspicious and traceable. Buying a dip after the event (and then presumably _stopping_ the bombing campaign) would be far less suspicious, because anyone might take the view that the selloff made the stock a bargain. So that element seems reasonable. But there are 1,800 Target stores. How would you convince the market of the notion of a massive highly specific anti-Target bombing campaign? A one-off attack would likely be interpreted as terrorism against generic mall targets, with little to be read into the particular store that was attacked. I could speculate on more effective ways to spook the market by violent action, but I’m not going to. ETA: ninja-ed by Rysto. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-examples-bef-borussia-dortmund-bomber-of-crimes-of-violence-done-for-stock-market-gain/784908.md?page=2)