# Are there G.O.A.T.s in football? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430 "2009-09-24T23:09:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/1 "2009-09-24T23:09:10Z")
Michael Jordan was inducted into the basketball Hall of Fame as pretty much the consensus Greatest (basketball player) Of All Time. In other sports, there are also consensus “best of all time” players: Wayne Gretzky (Hockey, scoring) Cy Young (Baseball, pitching) Tiger Woods (Well, Jack Nicklaus for another 2 years, but then Tiger, golf) But in football, there’s never an easy discussion at any position except WR, and even that has some controversy: WR (Jerry Rice is considered the GOAT at WR, but there’s some discussion about how much he benefited from his opponents not being able to counteract the West Coast offense.) QB (Montana, Marino, Elway, Unitas, etc.) O-Line (no stats recorded, so no way to compare across decades) D-Line (Sack wasn’t a stat until the 80’s) RB (Jim Brown, Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders) TE (no stat for blocking) etc. Are there clearly GOATs at specific positions in football? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/2 "2009-09-24T23:30:35Z")
Nope. I’d dispute even the GOATs that you considered consensus (that is, I’d dispute that they’re consensus). I’ve heard plenty of argument about MJ vis a vis Russell or Chamberlain, for instance. Gretzky and Ruth are the two closest, I’d say, with the former being quite a bit ahead. But as a general rule my feeling is there’s no such thing as an agreed-upon opinion when it comes to sports. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/3 "2009-09-24T23:40:00Z")
You forget Gordie Howe. Wilt is correct for Basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/4 "2009-09-24T23:49:15Z")
See? ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/5 "2009-09-25T00:41:59Z")
Stats or no stats would anyone other than Reggie White be the the first choice for DE on any all-time great football team? I can’t think of anyone. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/6 "2009-09-25T01:34:33Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > Stats or no stats would anyone other than Reggie White be the the first choice for DE on any all-time great football team? I can’t think of anyone. I’d take Bruce Smith first at DE. No, I’m not just being contrarian. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/7 "2009-09-25T01:54:47Z")
Quarterback: Joe Montana Running back: Barry Sanders Fullback: Bronco Nagurski Receiver: Jerry Rice Tight End: Kellen Winslow Offensive Lineman: Anthony Munoz Defensive Lineman: Reggie White Linebacker: Lawrence Taylor Defensive Back: Dick Lane Safety: Ronnie Lott Notable omissions: Sammy Baugh, Jim Brown, Jack Youngblood, Deion Sanders, Mike Butkus. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/8 "2009-09-25T01:58:40Z")
There are so many positions in football QB- Marino-Unitas R.B. Payton-Sanders TE- Winslow tackle- Munoz center -Webster safety- Lott punter-Ray Guy cornerback- Blount DE- Mean Joe Greene LB- Lawrence Taylor Field goals- Anderson- Hard to argue. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/9 "2009-09-25T02:14:44Z")
Deacon Jones is probably the end who’d be most commonly be brought up to argue with the Minister, I expect. Personally I think Reggie White was easily the best football player of my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/10 "2009-09-25T02:59:43Z")
Kick Returns: [Devin Hester](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Hester); the main thing curbing his records-breaking trajectory from the midpoint or so of his second season on was other teams’ growing unwillingness to kick to him, which took on comic dimensions at times (as in the case of the coach who ordered his player to boot the ball into Lake Michigan rather than kick it to Hester). Even so, he managed to break four NFL returns records in his first two years in the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/11 "2009-09-25T03:27:34Z")
> [@The\_Scrivener](#): > > Kick Returns: [Devin Hester](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Hester); the main thing curbing his records-breaking trajectory from the midpoint or so of his second season on was other teams’ growing unwillingness to kick to him, which took on comic dimensions at times (as in the case of the coach who ordered his player to boot the ball into Lake Michigan rather than kick it to Hester). > > Even so, he managed to break four NFL returns records in his first two years in the NFL. Too soon. He needs more time. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/12 "2009-09-25T03:29:49Z")
No GOATs in football. It’s far too much of a team game. Every position is hugely affected but the players around it and the system and situation in which it’s put. Golf and Baseball are essentially individual sports and declaring a GOAT isn’t completely absurd. There is room for debate as statistics aren’t the only measure but they are pretty damned persuasive. Soccer, Hockey and Basketball are team games but they are team games where individual efforts frequently and clearly stand out. A huge sample size of game occur in which consensuses can reasonably occur. Football is a strange bird. The positions vary widely and none except perhaps kicker happen in anything close to isolation. The sample size of games is comparatively small and within those games the sample size of the plays involving many positions is a fraction of that even. Complicating matters even further is that so many statistics are subjective at best and often nonexistent. Of course this is what makes the debate so much fun, even if a majority opinion is impossible. PS: Michael Jordan is the GOAT. All other discussion is misguided or pure contrarianism. It’s really not even that close. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/13 "2009-09-25T03:32:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Too soon. He needs more time. True, he’s remarkably young, but what would you say of a 15-year veteran returns man who had four NFL records to his name? If you’d be willing to consider him the GOAT in returns, why not Hester, who did it so much faster? In any event, I trust that Hester will be running circles [no pun intended] around his critics before his career is through. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/14 "2009-09-25T04:36:51Z")
re: Hester: I dunno, he’s not the main returner anymore, but it’s pretty compelling that he did all that he did within two years. re: White vs Bruce Smith vs Whoever: Imho, I think there’s a huge disparity in opinion based on which players you’ve actually seen in your lifetime, which adds to the lack of consensus. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/15 "2009-09-25T08:11:24Z")
**Omni** is correct in that it’s hard to really name a GOAT in football. The main reason is that its an extremely team-oriented sport, and one position can’t dominate. I think another reason is the relatively large number of players in the league (which creates more deserving candidates) and the high injury rate (which shorts some careers and also leads to more candidates getting playing time… just look at Tom Brady). Most people will agree with Jerry Rice for his position, but I think he’s the only one who is widely agreed upon. And he serves as a good example why football is hard to pick a greatest for … 1) he only suffered one injury, and missed only the one season; 2) he played with a LOT of good people on his team (I mean, Tim Brown caught 1000 balls playing for the terrible Raiders… what would he have done on the 49ers?) and 3) he played receiver, which is a position you can stay relatively healthy and have a long career… not many RBs lasting into their 40s, to compare. I also wonder if part of it is just the game changing a lot over the years. But I don’t know enough about other sports to know if football has really changed more than other sports has in a similar amount of time. Even Ray Guy has his detractors (and I’m not sure myself if they’re wrong or not). ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/16 "2009-09-25T08:35:15Z")
There are probably some consensus guys at various positions. Skill Positions QB - Too many for a consensus. Marino/Montana are the top of my list but I can see arguments for a lot of guys. RB - Barry Sanders was the most electric, but wasn’t perfect. Walter Payton and even Emmett Smith are in the discussion for their various attributes, but Barry was the best runner. WR - Jerry Rice is probably consensus here. Randy Moss is in the discussion but he needs to retire so we can get real perspective on his career. TE - Kellen Winslow Sr. is probably consensus here, but I think partly because he “revolutionized” the position. Tony Gonzalez is in the picture but also needs to retire before we can really assess. Other positions Offensive Tackle: Anthony Munoz (probably consensus) Center: Mike Webster (probably consensus) Guard: John Hannah (probably consensus) Defensive End: Reggie White (probably consensus) Defensive Tackle: Joe Greene (probably consensus) Linebacker: Lawrence Taylor (consensus) Safety: Ronnie Lott (probably consensus) Cornerback: Ron Woodson (probably consensus) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/17 "2009-09-25T11:00:54Z")
> [@The\_Scrivener](#): > > Kick Returns: [Devin Hester](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Hester); the main thing curbing his records-breaking trajectory from the midpoint or so of his second season on was other teams’ growing unwillingness to kick to him, which took on comic dimensions at times (as in the case of the coach who ordered his player to boot the ball into Lake Michigan rather than kick it to Hester). > > Even so, he managed to break four NFL returns records in his first two years in the NFL. Dante Hall had a rapid rise and fall, too. It’s part of the kick returning business. These days Hester doesn’t return punts anymore and they’re trying to use him as a wide receiver. I think Jim Brown is probably the consensus greatest running back, but maybe I am mostly familiar with the views of old timers. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/18 "2009-09-25T12:23:00Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > WR (Jerry Rice is considered the GOAT at WR, but there’s some discussion about how much he benefited from his opponents not being able to counteract the West Coast offense.) Wait - really? That’s actually an argument that people use? That’s absurd! “There’s nothing we could do to stop him, so his numbers are inflated”? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/19 "2009-09-25T12:35:54Z")
I’m surprised that Jim Parker hasn’t come up when going through offensive linemen. The man was a god at his positions. I’d say Jim Brown still towers over his competition as a running back. The only knock against him is that, as a fullback, he loathed blocking. On the other hand, Ray Guy’s stock as a punter has really dropped. Sean Lahman’s _Pro Football Historical Abstract_ really dings him. ---
**Author:** ![Redwing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@Redwing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redwing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/20 "2009-09-25T13:47:05Z")
> [@Stringer](#): > > Defensive Tackle: Joe Greene (probably consensus) Or, you know, Alan Page. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430.md?page=2)