# Are there G.O.A.T.s in football? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430 "2009-09-24T23:09:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/21 "2009-09-25T13:55:58Z")
Sure there are. There’s Pele, George Best etc. d & r ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/22 "2009-09-25T16:56:22Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Wait - really? That’s actually an argument that people use? That’s absurd! “There’s nothing we could do to stop him, so his numbers are inflated”? No. The argument is: put him in the NFL now, 20 years after the fact, and have him try to produce the same numbers. He wouldn’t. Football cannot have G.O.A.T.s because there simply is no position that does not depend upon the abilities of the other players on the field to produce the statistices that make that person “great.” Joe Montana was a very good quarterback, but would he have produced the same results playing for the same team Archie Manning did? Emmitt Smith was a great running back, but would he have produced the same numbers for a team as bad as, say, the contemporaneous Atlanta Falcon teams, or, worse, the Lambs of the 80s and early 90s? Field Goal kickers are perhaps the only players whos efforts are largely individual, and even they are subject to the coaching tendencies of the teams they play for to rack up decent statistics. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/23 "2009-09-25T16:59:22Z")
But Barry Sanders did it with a very, very bad team and a shitty organization. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/24 "2009-09-25T17:07:28Z")
I think Barry Sanders and Jerry Rice are the only two GOATs in football Barry’s number were too impressive and there is no argument that his team helped him out in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/25 "2009-09-25T17:21:27Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Nope. > > I’d dispute even the GOATs that you considered consensus (that is, I’d dispute that they’re consensus). I’ve heard plenty of argument about MJ vis a vis Russell or Chamberlain, for instance. Bull. Michael Jordan is the basketball goat by a country mile. Go ask a thousand people on the street who the best basketball player ever is and you might get 5-10 nerds and contrarians saying other people, but everybody else is going to say Michael Jordan. And don’t bother linking to goat lists that have other people on top, because those lists have to say controversial stuff to draw attention. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/26 "2009-09-25T17:41:31Z")
So what, you’re telling me I haven’t heard people argue? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/27 "2009-09-25T17:45:47Z")
I’m telling you Michael Jordan is the consensus goat. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/28 "2009-09-25T18:16:32Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’m telling you Michael Jordan is the consensus goat. ONLY because he’s the most recent. Put into proper historical context, he’s not the GOAT. The correct answer is Wilt Chamberlain. I’ll also accept Bill Russell. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/29 "2009-09-25T18:25:51Z")
The only reason to say Wilt is to be contrary. MJ is the GOAT in basketball by a long way, and it has nothing to do with being more recent. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/30 "2009-09-25T18:27:07Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > ONLY because he’s the most recent. Put into proper historical context, he’s not the GOAT. The correct answer is Wilt Chamberlain. I’ll also accept Bill Russell. Like I said, according to a basketball nerd. I’m almost 30 and I followed basketball most of the time I was growing up, and I’ve never even heard of Bill Russell. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/31 "2009-09-25T18:34:27Z")
And like I said, see? Also, if you’ve never heard of Bill Russell, you really don’t know almost anything about the NBA. I’m not saying that to be superior or anything - and I certainly don’t think the people who are saying Jordan isn’t the best are doing so because they’re basketball nerds, quite the opposite - but Bill Russell is not obscure. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/32 "2009-09-25T18:49:43Z")
I know exactly what most casual fans - the vast majority of fans - know. Which is my point. Jordan is BY FAR the consensus GOAT of basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/33 "2009-09-25T18:54:04Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Like I said, according to a basketball nerd. I’m almost 30 and I followed basketball most of the time I was growing up, and I’ve never even heard of Bill Russell. Being certain that Jordan is the GOAT and having never heard of Bill Russell would be much like being certain that Gretzky is the GOAT and having never heard of Gordie Howe. You might be right, but it’s not an informed opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/34 "2009-09-25T18:58:43Z")
The only football position where I think there’s a virtually undisputed GOAT is Jerry Rice at WR. All other positions are debatable. Jordan is the basketball GOAT, and I really don’t think it’s close. Gretzky obviously at hockey. Baseball is tough, but I think Ruth is the really mythic name, the gold standard, and the most dominant contemporaneously to his era. Pele for soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/35 "2009-09-25T18:59:31Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Like I said, according to a basketball nerd. I’m almost 30 and I followed basketball most of the time I was growing up, and I’ve never even heard of Bill Russell. How in the world have you “followed basketball” & never heard of Bill Russell? Hell, he was all over the news just two years ago, when the Celtics were making their run. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/36 "2009-09-25T19:00:26Z")
Baseball is really not tough, unless you weigh the lack of black players in the 20s major leagues very heavily. Ruth is the best hitter of all time, and would probably be a consensus GOAT just based on that; the fact that he was also an excellent pitcher puts all the possible contenders away. Don Bradman I think is still the consensus GOAT in cricket. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/37 "2009-09-25T19:11:53Z")
Jim Thorpe might have to be in the football discussion, too. And track and field, just like I’ve heard Jim Brown credited as one of the best lacrosse players ever. In tennis I think the consensus today would come down to Federer or Laver. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/38 "2009-09-25T19:14:41Z")
Barry Sanders was a dog. Sure, he was a great runner. But he provided absolutely no leadership for that team and the utterly classless manner in which he retired diminishes a lot from his achievements. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_Tightlips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Joey\_Tightlips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_Tightlips)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/39 "2009-09-25T19:17:22Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I know exactly what most casual fans - the vast majority of fans - know. Which is my point. Jordan is BY FAR the consensus GOAT of basketball. Even so, most “fans” are young and have no sense of the history of the game. If you ask basktball “experts” (sports writers/historians) they will choose Wilt or Russel at least equally if not more than Jordan. If you want to say Jordan is better IYHO, that’s fine, but how can you seriously say the guy (Wilt) who AVERAGED 50 points a game in a season is not able to be discussed as the GOAT (best Jordan did was 37)? They had to change the friggin rules of the game he was so dominant! To say it’s not at least debatable is foolish. On the same note, as much as I loved watching Barry Sanders play, I don’t think there’s a single football expert who wouldn’t say Jim Brown is the GOAT running back. I think that’s the closest the OP is going to get in football (well, he and Rice). ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/40 "2009-09-25T19:17:46Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > How in the world have you “followed basketball” & never heard of Bill Russell? Hell, he was all over the news just two years ago, when the Celtics were making their run. I followed it growing up, I haven’t followed it recently. Seeing his picture and knowing he played for the Celtics reminds me that I have heard of him, but he’s in no way a threat to Jordan’s consensus as the top of the heap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430.md?page=3)