# Are there G.O.A.T.s in football? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430 "2009-09-24T23:09:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/101 "2009-09-30T08:36:23Z")
Um… … For place kicker, I nominate Jason Elam. He nailed field goes from an eternity away. He nailed them from the stupidest angles possible. He nailed them early, nailed them late, nailed them with the game on the line. And he was a block of ice in the clutch. I don’t remember a single critical blunder he made when it mattered the most. Even…Morten Andersen, was it?..had that infamous miss against the Falcons that cost the Vikings a conference championship. Maybe I’m just being a homer, but it’s tough to argue against him. … Yeah, that’s pretty much all I have. Carry on… ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/102 "2009-09-30T12:56:25Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > I mean, Tim Brown caught 1000 balls playing for the terrible Raiders… what would he have done on the 49ers? I wouldn’t call those Raiders teams terrible. Of the sixteen years Brown played for the Raiders, they had only five losing seasons (averaging a little over a .500 record over that time). Not that they were tearing it up all those years, but far from terrible. (If you couldn’t tell I’m a huge Rice fan, and i’m just defending his G.O.A.T. status with whatever I can grab) ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/103 "2009-09-30T13:16:47Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Re: Ronnie Lott: I didn’t see him play, but I would put up Rod Woodson, Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu as better safeties. Currently, the Steelers are 1-2 simply (imho) because Troy is injured. I don’t see how you can put these players (except maybe Woodson) in this discussion. I would take Lott in a nanosecond against any of these players. Ed Reed is good at playing center-field, but he isn’t taking on a full speed RB and taking them down. Polamalu is good too, but has been in the league for what? Five years? Not long enough to put him in the discussion. Could you see any of today’s players having part of a finger amputated, and then came back out on the field to play? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/104 "2009-09-30T13:44:30Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > For place kicker, I nominate Jason Elam. > > \ > > And he was a block of ice in the clutch. I don’t remember a single critical blunder he made when it mattered the most. Even…Morten Andersen, was it?..had that infamous miss against the Falcons that cost the Vikings a conference championship. What, seriously? I think you’ll find the consensus GOAT at kicker is Adam Vinatieri. Punter, of course, is Ray Guy. And that was Gary Anderson, not Morten Andersen. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/105 "2009-09-30T14:27:16Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Like I said, according to a basketball nerd. I’m almost 30 and I followed basketball most of the time I was growing up, and I’ve never even heard of Bill Russell. I am almost 40, have _never followed basketball and I_ have heard of Bill Russell. I don’t think MJ is the consensus you think he is. He is just the most recent great player most non-fans can name. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/106 "2009-09-30T23:58:08Z")
What a terrific hijack this thread has become. I’d like to make a couple of points, if I may. IMHO, Michael Jordan is the Greatest 2 guard of All Time, and I am confident that that should be undisputable. While Wilt may have played with some outstanding teammates over the years, I don’t believe that he had anyone of Pippen’s stature while he was at the top of his game (he played w West during the twilight of his career). During the 90’s, no other team came anywhere near the Bulls in talent regarding their top 2, if for no other reason than the presence of # 23. Regarding Football, I am surprised that Deacon Jones has only been mentioned once, and that Ray Lewis not at all. It has been said that had the sack been a statistic when he played, he would still hold all the records. And while I do believe that Taylor is the GOAT, I feel that Lewis should be in the conversation (re linebackers, didn’t someone here earlier refer to Dick Butkus as Mike?) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/107 "2009-10-01T00:05:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > During the 90’s, no other team came anywhere near the Bulls in talent regarding their top 2, if for no other reason than the presence of # 23. It’s not much of an argument against Jordan’s value as a player that no other teams had a player as good as him. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/108 "2009-10-01T00:15:19Z")
I forgot to say - while I think Pippen tends to be underrated as a player, Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer, and Chet Walker were all individually at least approximate to Pippen in ability – all good all-around players, each an effective scorer in his own right, and from what I know of Greer and Cunningham, at least, they were excellent defenders – and it so happens that all three of them were on Wilt’s team at the same time, which is where my comparison of the relative supporting casts came from. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/109 "2009-10-01T00:24:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > What a terrific hijack this thread has become. I’d like to make a couple of points, if I may. IMHO, Michael Jordan is the Greatest 2 guard of All Time, and I am confident that that should be undisputable. While Wilt may have played with some outstanding teammates over the years, I don’t believe that he had anyone of Pippen’s stature while he was at the top of his game (he played w West during the twilight of his career). During the 90’s, no other team came anywhere near the Bulls in talent regarding their top 2, if for no other reason than the presence of # 23. > Regarding Football, I am surprised that Deacon Jones has only been mentioned once, and that Ray Lewis not at all. It has been said that had the sack been a statistic when he played, he would still hold all the records. And while I do believe that Taylor is the GOAT, I feel that Lewis should be in the conversation (re linebackers, didn’t someone here earlier refer to Dick Butkus as Mike?) Ray Lewis is a helluva linebacker, but he’s got to be better than Ditka, Singletary, Greene, Lambert, Nitschke, Schmidt, Lanier, and Jordan. I don’t know if Ray Lewis is the best middle linebacker ever, but I think you can make him top three. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/110 "2009-10-01T01:00:43Z")
My mentioning of the talent level of the Bulls top 2 was regarding the assertion that during their title years there were a dozen teams with comparable talent; it is a point that I disagree with because Jordan was far and away the best, and that Pippen was in the top ten. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/111 "2009-10-01T01:05:43Z")
Right, and I agree with that. My assertion was that dozens of players in the 90s had comparable supporting casts, though, not that dozens of teams were as good as the Bulls. I wouldn’t argue that other teams were as talented as Jordan’s, _including Jordan_, because I don’t think any team was ever as talented as Jordan’s, because of Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/112 "2009-10-01T01:39:01Z")
Thanks for clarifying, JC. The supporting cast is also what seperated Russell’s teams from Wilt’s. Also, regarding Wilt, he was an outstanding athlete, and competed quite successfully in track and field. Getting back to football, I’d rank Jim Brown as top rb, and I imagine that he would have excelled in the modern game, catching passes and picking off blitzing defenders when called for. He was also one of the best lacrosse players of his day. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/113 "2009-10-01T02:37:54Z")
> [@HongKongFooey](#): > > Why don’t we just stick to real sports? Okay, I’m going to suggest that [Donald Bradman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman) may be the greatest G.O.A.T. in any sport. From the link above: > [@](#): > > The statistics show that “no other athlete dominates an international sport to the extent that Bradman does cricket”. In order to post a similarly dominant career statistic as Bradman, a baseball batter would need a career batting average of .392, while a basketball player would need to score an average of 43.0 points per game. The respective records are .366 and 30.1. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/114 "2009-10-01T03:21:48Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Okay, I’m going to suggest that [Donald Bradman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman) may be the greatest G.O.A.T. in any sport. > > From the link above: A middling major league baseball player would hot bat (out-hit?) a cricket player. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/115 "2009-10-01T03:36:44Z")
I’m not a Packers fan, but the lack of mentioning Don Hutson is sad. He still has half a dozen records that Jerry Rice never broke, despite playing in a distinctly non-pass happy era. And at TE, I don’t think Winslow can be given a shoo-in without considering Tony Gonzales. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/116 "2009-10-01T03:57:15Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > A middling major league baseball player would hot bat (out-hit?) a cricket player. ?? How do you work that out? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/117 "2009-10-01T12:06:02Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > ?? How do you work that out? [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXp2u3hMGBk). ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/118 "2009-10-01T18:28:02Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > No. The argument is: put him in the NFL now, 20 years after the fact, and have him try to produce the same numbers. He wouldn’t. So? Take Benito Santiago, put him in 1880s baseball, and _he’d_ be the best ever for a decade or two. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/119 "2009-10-01T18:58:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Pele for soccer. Meh, He never played in the European leagues, he shone in the '58 cup when many of the great teams did not compete. He was great in the Brazil team of 1970 but, and I am barely joking here, I probably could have played on that team because that team was so good at every position. For me, it’s Maradonna or Best. Maradonna for getting to two WC finals and for winning Serie A in the 80’s with a fairly weak team. Best was incredible. Power, pace, skill, great in the air and he could tackle so well. For American football I’d take Montanna at QB. Simply put, the man won wherever he went and was a hair’s breath away from going all the way with Kansas City. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430/120 "2009-10-01T19:05:53Z")
What about Eusebio? Best never played in a World Cup (not that it was his fault), so you can’t very well argue that he proved himself against the world’s best. Anyway, you can’t nominate anyone you can’t spell, so **Lochdale’s** vote for Monta_n_a doesn’t count. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-g-o-a-t-s-in-football/511430.md?page=7)