# Are there good generals who were lousy soldiers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779 "2014-09-28T15:35:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/21 "2014-09-29T18:47:57Z")
I’d think that a person who would make a mediocre infantry private could easily be someone who’d make a terrific general. I mean, he may be able to follow orders and keep his stuff adequately squared away, but he may not be a particularly good shot, or be good at field-stripping a machine gun, or marching for miles with a pack, etc… But the same guy may be a terrific leader, a terrific administrator and have a very good grasp of strategy and tactics, which count more when you get past being a company or platoon commander than actual marksmanship and soldier skills. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/22 "2014-09-29T18:54:44Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d think that a person who would make a mediocre infantry private could easily be someone who’d make a terrific general. I mean, he may be able to follow orders and keep his stuff adequately squared away, but he may not be a particularly good shot, or be good at field-stripping a machine gun, or marching for miles with a pack, etc… > > But the same guy may be a terrific leader, a terrific administrator and have a very good grasp of strategy and tactics, which count more when you get past being a company or platoon commander than actual marksmanship and soldier skills. Right, that was basically the point I was making above. There’s a big difference between “Can you follow orders, clean your gun, shoot halfway decently, and march for a few miles?” and “Do you consistently exceed expectations with respect to following orders, cleaning your gun, shooting, and marching?” Even the leaders need marginal skills in the “grunt” work. A general that can’t shoot is much different than a general who isn’t particularly the sharpest shot on the base. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/23 "2014-09-29T19:17:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d think that a person who would make a mediocre infantry private could easily be someone who’d make a terrific general. I mean, he may be able to follow orders and keep his stuff adequately squared away, but he may not be a particularly good shot, or be good at field-stripping a machine gun, or marching for miles with a pack, etc… > > But the same guy may be a terrific leader, a terrific administrator and have a very good grasp of strategy and tactics, which count more when you get past being a company or platoon commander than actual marksmanship and soldier skills. Maybe so. But in the real world, how would anyone ever get from one extreme to the other? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/24 "2014-09-29T20:25:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Maybe so. But in the real world, how would anyone ever get from one extreme to the other? I was thinking more along the lines of the classic brains vs. brawn argument and extrapolating from there. The more interesting question to me is basically are there good officers who would have made shitty NCOs? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/25 "2014-09-30T14:47:53Z")
[QUOTE=robert\_columbia] What other leadership-track programs exist (other than the military)? Are there programs where someone with a lot of education and/or skills (but no police experience) can go straight into Police Academy (Leadership Track) and come out as a Detective, supervisory Sergeant, or something like that? Can someone with an MBA and no retail experience go straight into managing the night shift at Burger King (with a likely promotion to General Manager within 2-5 years) without having to flip burgers for a few years for minimum wage? Sure, he probably would have to learn to flip them at some point, but he would do it as part of managerial training or whatnot. [/QUOTE] Hospital Manager comes to mind. Straight out of school they are managing doctors and surgeons with decades of experience. They don’t know how to do surgery themselves, but they know how to manage medical personnel. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/26 "2014-09-30T15:07:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Maybe so. But in the real world, how would anyone ever get from one extreme to the other? By field promotions in time of war. It happened in the past, I doubt it’s even conceivably possible in modern times, and I’d be curious to know what was the last known example of a grunt rising up all the way to generalship. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/27 "2014-09-30T15:22:33Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Remember that the vast majority of generals start out as lieutenants. They are always officers, leading troops, and by definition never part of the rank-and-file. A tiny handful do start as common soldiers, but those that do never get to be generals because they were lousy privates. \ One notable exception was Field Marshal Sir William Robert Robertson, 1st Baronet, GCB, GCMG, GCVO, DSO (29 January 1860 – 12 February 1933). He was the first, and remains the only, British Army officer to rise from the ranks to come a Field Marshall. He left service (a servant in a private house) to enlist aged 17 (5 months underage) as a trooper in the 16th (The Queen’s) Lancers and rose to became Chief of the Imperial General Staff (CIGS - now called Chief of Defense Staff) and thus the professional Head of the British Army from 1916 to 1918, during the First World War. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/28 "2014-09-30T15:55:08Z")
Conversely, the only current Israeli military officers ranked Major General or higher who _didn’t_ start out as enlisted men in combat units (infantry, armor, artillery or special forces) are the pilots. Even the commander of the Israeli Navy started out as the Israeli equivalent of a SEAL. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/29 "2014-09-30T16:52:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > By field promotions in time of war. It happened in the past, I doubt it’s even conceivably possible in modern times, and I’d be curious to know what was the last known example of a grunt rising up all the way to generalship. It happens occasionally. Vittorio Tresti (originally from Italy) joined the French Foreign Legion in the 1950s as a 2nd class legionnaire. He retired as a 2-star general in the 1990s. Quite extraordinary. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/30 "2014-09-30T17:14:40Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > What other leadership-track programs exist (other than the military)? Are there programs where someone with a lot of education and/or skills (but no police experience) can go straight into Police Academy (Leadership Track) and come out as a Detective, supervisory Sergeant, or something like that? Can someone with an MBA and no retail experience go straight into managing the night shift at Burger King (with a likely promotion to General Manager within 2-5 years) without having to flip burgers for a few years for minimum wage? Sure, he probably would have to learn to flip them at some point, but he would do it as part of managerial training or whatnot. I’ve known plenty of fast food/retail managers who either never worked entry level in fast food/retail or did it so long before they got jobs as managers that the experience was irrelevant . This is particularly true for night/assistant managers, as they are often people who are currently working in some other field and taking on the retail/ff as a second job. ``` As far as police - well , it's not uncommon for police and other government agencies to have a division similar to , but not exactly the same as the military. The similarity is that there are two entry points into the system and no one can enter at the intermediary steps. Just like you can enter the Army as either a private or a 2nd Lt but not in between , there are police departments where you can enter as either a police officer or a deputy chief ( or deputy commissioner ). ``` ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/31 "2014-09-30T17:53:29Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > By field promotions in time of war. It happened in the past, I doubt it’s even conceivably possible in modern times, and I’d be curious to know what was the last known example of a grunt rising up all the way to generalship. Several examples of very high ranking enlisted to flag rank US officers in the last 25-30 years. > **[John Shalikashvili](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shalikashvili)** > > John Malchase David Shalikashvili (Georgian: ჯონ მალხაზ დავით შალიკაშვილი, romanized: jon malkhaz davit shalik'ashvili, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}IPA: \[ʃalikʼaʃʷili\]; 27 June 1936 – 23 July 2011) was a United States Army general who served as Supreme Allied Commander Europe from 1992 to 1993 and the 13th chairman of the Joint... > **[Michael Boorda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Michael_Boorda)** > > Jeremy Michael Boorda (November 26, 1939 – May 16, 1996) was a United States Navy admiral who served as the 25th Chief of Naval Operations. Boorda is notable as the first person to have risen from the enlisted ranks to become Chief of Naval Operations, the highest-ranking billet in the United States Navy. > Boorda died by suicide by shooting himself in the chest after leaving suicide notes reported to contain expressions of concern that he had tarnished the reputation of the Navy, following a medi... > **[Jim Mattis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mattis)** > > James Norman Mattis (born September 8, 1950) is an American military veteran who served as the 26th United States secretary of defense from 2017 to 2019. A retired Marine Corps four-star general, he commanded forces in the Persian Gulf War, the War in Afghanistan, and the Iraq War. > Mattis was commissioned in the Marine Corps through the Naval Reserve Officers' Training Corps after graduating from Central Washington University. A career Marine, he gained a reputation among his peers for intell... > **[Larry D. Welch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_D._Welch)** > > General Larry D. Welch (born June 9, 1934) is a retired United States Air Force four-star general who served as the 12th Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force. As Chief of Staff, he served as the senior uniformed Air Force officer responsible for the organization, training and equipping of a combined active duty, Guard, Reserve and civilian force serving at locations in the United States and overseas. As a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he and the other service chiefs functioned as ... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred\_M.\_Gray,\_Jr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_M._Gray,_Jr). None of those guys didn’t serve a tremendously long time before going to officer school, but they all enlisted and then became officers a few years later. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/32 "2014-09-30T20:21:23Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > George Custer graduated dead last, 34th out of 34 in his class. Which may match to his later career, which ended needlessly tragically, for him and his soldiers. One might keep in mind that during the War Between The States, Custer was either the youngest Brigadier General or Major General in the Army. I forget which, but he ended up as a 23 year old Major General. He got downranked after the war was over. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/33 "2014-09-30T21:28:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Conversely, the only current Israeli military officers ranked Major General or higher who _didn’t_ start out as enlisted men in combat units (infantry, armor, artillery or special forces) are the pilots. Even the commander of the Israeli Navy started out as the Israeli equivalent of a SEAL. Huh? There aren’t officer schools? Or maybe you need to serve first as an enlisted man to join an officer school? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/34 "2014-09-30T21:49:08Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > It happens occasionally. Vittorio Tresti (originally from Italy) joined the French Foreign Legion in the 1950s as a 2nd class legionnaire. He retired as a 2-star general in the 1990s. Quite extraordinary. While searching for him, I found a foreign legion board mentioning a second similar case : a Hugo Gottlieb who enlisted in 1938, ended WW2 as second lieutenant, and also retired as general in 1979 (no mention of his exact rank, but he eventually became secretary general of the French ministry of defense, so I guess not as a mere brigadier general). And fuck! Searching for Gottlieb final rank, I’m coming upon a third name, a Van Hecke who also went all the way from enlisted to general. I’m amazed. I truly didn’t think such military careers were possible, since, say, the 19th century. Or maybe it’s a specificity of the Foreign Legion? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/35 "2014-09-30T21:53:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > None of those guys didn’t serve a tremendously long time before going to officer school, but they all enlisted and then became officers a few years later. That’s a bit different. If they just served briefly before joining an officer school, they aren’t much different from someone who started as 2nd lieutenant. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/36 "2014-09-30T22:00:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Or maybe it’s a specificity of the Foreign Legion? Thinking about it, it probably has more to do with them fighting in several wars. Gottlieb for instance was NCO during WW2, junior officer at the beginning of the Indochina war, senior officer during the Algeria war. So maybe field promotions are still a thing in modern armies (or were still a thing during the second half of the 20th century at least). ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/37 "2014-09-30T22:19:51Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > One might keep in mind that during the War Between The States, Custer was either the youngest Brigadier General or Major General in the Army. I forget which, but he ended up as a 23 year old Major General. He got downranked after the war was over. Yes, but during the Slaveholders Rebellion, Custer’s promotion to General was not because of ability or demonstrated competence, but because of family connections, i.e. corruption. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/38 "2014-09-30T23:00:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > A good platoon leader does everything his soldiers do, and does them first. Because there are always more Second Lieutenants. Good, experienced NCOs are worth their weight in gold. Ninety-day wonders not so much. > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Slaveholders Rebellion Stealing it! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/39 "2014-09-30T23:30:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I’d think that a person who would make a mediocre infantry private could easily be someone who’d make a terrific general. I mean, he may be able to follow orders and keep his stuff adequately squared away, but he may not be a particularly good shot, or be good at field-stripping a machine gun, or marching for miles with a pack, etc… > > > > But the same guy may be a terrific leader, a terrific administrator and have a very good grasp of strategy and tactics, which count more when you get past being a company or platoon commander than actual marksmanship and soldier skills. > > Maybe so. But in the real world, how would anyone ever get from one extreme to the other? Not the same thing, but you could be a terrific leader and administrator who, y’know, gets elected President despite lacking _any_ knack for marksmanship or long marches. Heck, you can likewise get tapped for Secretary of Defense after _no_ time in uniform; William Cohen did it fairly recently, just like Dick Cheney before him and Harold Brown before him; dunno if any of 'em had the makings of a young infantryman. (Obligatory joke about Cheney accidentally shooting a guy in the face goes here.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/40 "2014-10-01T07:13:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Huh? There aren’t officer schools? Or maybe you need to serve first as an enlisted man to join an officer school? There is an officer’s school. Candidates usually come from the ranks of junior NCOs - squad leaders, tank commanders and the like. You need to have command training (squad leader’s school or similar) as well as command experience to be accepted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779.md?page=3)