# Are there good generals who were lousy soldiers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779 "2014-09-28T15:35:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/41 "2014-10-01T07:15:25Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > While searching for him, I found a foreign legion board mentioning a second similar case : a Hugo Gottlieb who enlisted in 1938, ended WW2 as second lieutenant, and also retired as general in 1979 (no mention of his exact rank, but he eventually became secretary general of the French ministry of defense, so I guess not as a mere brigadier general). > > And fuck! Searching for Gottlieb final rank, I’m coming upon a third name, a Van Hecke who also went all the way from enlisted to general. > > I’m amazed. I truly didn’t think such military careers were possible, since, say, the 19th century. Or maybe it’s a specificity of the Foreign Legion? Still, it’s a very, very rare occurrence. While the French Foreign Legion indeed does commission officers from the ranks, it would be my (wild) guess that van Hecke, Gottlieb and Tresti were the only men who achieved this (making it to general) in the 20th century. In some Eastern Bloc armies, on the other hand, this would have almost been the norm. For instance, if you read the biographies of Soviet generals during WWII, you’ll find that many of them started their careers as enlisted men, often in the Tsarist army. By comparison, in the German army (or in the German armies, to be more precise) until 1918, it was impossible for an enlisted man to become an officer (except in some technical specialties). In the French army during the revolutionary and Napoleonic era, quite a number of generals had been promoted through the ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/42 "2014-10-01T07:18:21Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > In some Eastern Bloc armies, on the other hand, this would have almost been the norm. For instance, if you read the biographies of Soviet generals during WWII, you’ll find that many of them started their careers as enlisted men, often in the Tsarist army. In that specific case, it’s probably because most of the pre-revolutionary officer corps had been purged. As had much of the post-revolutionary officer corps. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/43 "2014-10-01T07:37:01Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m amazed. I truly didn’t think such military careers were possible, since, say, the 19th century. Or maybe it’s a specificity of the Foreign Legion? A nice big war can do amazing things for a military career. Enoch Powell apparently enlisted in 1939 and made it to Brigadier by 1945, which is about half-way between colonel and major-general. So he made it most of the way in a little over 5 years! I’m sure if he had decided to stay in the military rather than go into politics he would have been a general within a few years. Mind you, when he signed up at age 27 he’d already been a professor for a couple of years, so probably would have stood out of the ranks a bit… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/44 "2014-10-01T07:51:37Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > I’m sure if he had decided to stay in the military rather than go into politics he would have been a general within a few years. That’s very unlikely. The end of the war put a big halt on promotions. Matthew Ridgeway’s a good example. He was a respected and successful officer. He was a lieutenant colonel when the United States entered the war. Within four years, he was promoted five times. And then after 1945, he waited six more years for his next promotion. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/45 "2014-10-01T14:30:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s a bit different. If they just served briefly before joining an officer school, they aren’t much different from someone who started as 2nd lieutenant. How so? Most enlisted men only serve 2-4 years anyway. A guy who enlisted and went to OCS after 3 years and goes on to spend another 20 years as an officer still has as much claim to have been an enlisted man as anyone else. I agree that someone like my good friend who was an Army officer in Iraq during 2008 doesn’t really count- he enlisted, got through basic training, and his first orders were to report to OCS. This is mostly because he was several years out of college, so the only commissioning path to him was through OCS, and you have to be enlisted to go to OCS- you can’t (or couldn’t anyway) directly enroll in OCS. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/46 "2014-10-01T21:24:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve heard this about other sports. The best coaches were generally mediocre players. One explanation I’ve heard is that great players just use their natural skills while mediocre players have to figure out ways to play it without those natural skills. Honestly, I think that the explanation is way more prosaic than that. Being a great coach and being a great player are mostly independent skills, and there are far more mediocre players than great onces, so pure probability says that you’ll find far more great coaches among the larger pool of people. A secondary effect may be that mediocre players. who make less money during their career and generally have no ability to make money from endorsements after they retire, probably have a greater need to find a job after they retire, and coaching is a natural thing to try after spending 20-30 years in the sport (including their time playing as a child) when they likely haven’t developed a lot of skills outside of that. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Huh? There aren’t officer schools? Or maybe you need to serve first as an enlisted man to join an officer school? Israel still has mandatory military service, don’t they? Does that kick in before a person would typically go to officer school? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/47 "2014-10-01T22:49:24Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Somewhat related might be, for various US Generals, comparing their class rank on graduating from West Point to their eventual military career. > \*\* > George Custer graduated dead last, 34th out of 34 in his class. Which may match to his later career, which ended needlessly tragically, for him and his soldiers.\*\* > > Many well-known Generals of the Civil War, WWI and WWII seemed to rank somewhere in the middle of their graduating class: > > - Ulysses Grant – 21st out of 39 > - William Sherman – an exception at 6th out of 42 > - John Pershing – 30th out of 77 > - Dwight Eisenhower – 61st out of 164 > - Omar Bradley – 44th out of 164 > - George Patton – 46th out of 103 > > Not included in this list is Robert E Lee, who graduated 2nd in his class of 45, but turned traitor to his country. > > George Marshall, perhaps the greatest military asset of WWII, never went to West Point at all. Custers position as last of his class is a complicated matter. It was more to do with his indiscipline than lack of ability or soldiering. Though you could say this 'indiscipline" of Custer lead to his ultimate end, but it also possibly lead to his ultimate successes. His last in class position is further muddied by the fact his class broke up part way through the term. As the Civil War loomed half the cadets skedaddled from West Point to join the Confederacy. What may have been a position of near the bottom then turned into the position of dead last as half the class disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/48 "2014-10-02T00:12:22Z")
Even in the modern military, there are still a few high-ranking officers who were never what you would call “ordinary soldiers”, but instead got their position through some form of technical skills. Computer pioneer Grace Hopper, who was a rear admiral, comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/49 "2014-10-02T14:34:25Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Israel still has mandatory military service, don’t they? Does that kick in before a person would typically go to officer school? They do, and they also have an entirely different scheme for selecting and training officers. In the US, Britain, and probably most Commonwealth countries, the primary way they train officers is to take a young kid with a college degree, train him as an officer and set them loose on the troops. The primary difference being that USMA/USNA/USAFA take high school kids and train them to be officers concurrently with training them to be officers. Sandhurst/RAF College Cranwell/Britannia Royal Naval College Dartmouth are typically a roughly 2 year officer training course given to college graduates to train them as officers. Of course, there are exceptions to both the US and British systems- for example, some enlisted men in the US can go to USMA for college and be commissioned afterward, and the British schools don’t strictly speaking require a degree for entry. The Israeli system in essence identifies leaders from the enlisted rank and file, and then puts them in progressively more responsible positions. At some point, they put you in officer training and they get commissioned. Not exactly sure how college degrees play into it - maybe \*\*Alessan \*\*can shed more light on it? Anyway, it’s a more rational system, but might be a little harder to implement in the US- few college-eligible kids are likely to want to enlist in the military for multiple years on the off chance that they might get commissioned and have a career as an officer. Instead, they’ll just go for better civilian opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/50 "2014-10-02T15:41:55Z")
> [@bump](#): > > They do, and they also have an entirely different scheme for selecting and training officers. > > In the US, Britain, and probably most Commonwealth countries, the primary way they train officers is to take a young kid with a college degree, train him as an officer and set them loose on the troops. The primary difference being that USMA/USNA/USAFA take high school kids and train them to be officers concurrently with training them to be officers. Sandhurst/RAF College Cranwell/Britannia Royal Naval College Dartmouth are typically a roughly 2 year officer training course given to college graduates to train them as officers. Of course, there are exceptions to both the US and British systems… I think you meant that the academies (e.g. USMA) train you to be an officer while giving you a college/university education. You graduate with a bachelor’s degree and a 2Lt commission. You can also do ROTC, which is very much like this but happens at a non-Federal school. Marching at 6 AM, math class at 9, lunch, marching from 2-3 PM, English class at 5, shooting drill from 8-9 PM, etc… You go to college and officer school at the same time. Virginia Tech has a very large program for this. The other major opportunity for commission is Officer Candidate School (OCS) or whatever they call it nowadays. Basically, this applies if you _already have_ a bachelor’s degree from somewhere and you are now interested in doing officer training. During the Vietnam era, they would take you into OCS with pretty much any bachelor’s degree whatsoever - I know a guy who did it with a BA in Elementary Education. Nowadays, I think they’re a little more selective and look for people who have the aptitudes and skills that they want, not just “any bachelor’s degree”. > [@bump](#): > > The Israeli system in essence identifies leaders from the enlisted rank and file, and then puts them in progressively more responsible positions. At some point, they put you in officer training and they get commissioned. Not exactly sure how college degrees play into it - maybe \*\*Alessan \*\*can shed more light on it? > > Anyway, it’s a more rational system, but might be a little harder to implement in the US- few college-eligible kids are likely to want to enlist in the military for multiple years on the off chance that they might get commissioned and have a career as an officer. Instead, they’ll just go for better civilian opportunities. This is actually more or less the procedure in Robert Heinlein’s _Starship Troopers_ for officer selection. There’s no joining as an officer. You join as a grunt and work your way up, if you’re worthy enough and manage to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/51 "2014-10-02T16:12:50Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > This is actually more or less the procedure in Robert Heinlein’s _Starship Troopers_ for officer selection. There’s no joining as an officer. You join as a grunt and work your way up, if you’re worthy enough and manage to survive. But that was a Heinlein wish-fulfillment fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/52 "2014-10-02T16:16:01Z")
The Secretary of the Navy who shot himself in the heart not so long ago, after a false claim of service was discovered: didn’t he start as an enlisted sailor? Perhaps he wasn’t an admiral, though. Not sure if that’s part of the job description. > [@Rysto](#): > > Honestly, I think that the explanation is way more prosaic than that. Being a great coach and being a great player are mostly independent skills, and there are far more mediocre players than great onces, so pure probability says that you’ll find far more great coaches among the larger pool of people… I don’t think this is correct logic. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/53 "2014-10-02T16:48:04Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > You can also do ROTC, which is very much like this but happens at a non-Federal school. Marching at 6 AM, math class at 9, lunch, marching from 2-3 PM, English class at 5, shooting drill from 8-9 PM, etc… You go to college and officer school at the same time. Virginia Tech has a very large program for this. I went to Texas A&M (Dad was in the Corps of Cadets, but I wasn’t) so I’m pretty familiar with how it would work at the senior military colleges. Ultimately though, they’re doing officer training and university education concurrently, whether at a service academy or a ROTC program. I didn’t realize that ROTC commissions nearly 2x the number of officers than the service academies or OCS; I thought the service academies generated the majority of new officers. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/54 "2014-10-02T17:08:49Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > The Secretary of the Navy who shot himself in the heart not so long ago, after a false claim of service was discovered: didn’t he start as an enlisted sailor? Perhaps he wasn’t an admiral, though. Not sure if that’s part of the job description. Who are you thinking of? The closest I can come is that you conflated two separate cases. [Admiral Jeremy M. Boorda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Michael_Boorda) > [@](#): > > Jeremy Michael Boorda (November 26, 1939 – May 16, 1996) was a United States Navy admiral who served as the 25th Chief of Naval Operations. Boorda is notable for being the first American sailor to have risen through the enlisted ranks to become the Chief of Naval Operations. Boorda committed suicide in 1996… > > Boorda was the first Chief of Naval Operations to have risen from the enlisted rates, one of only three such modern service chiefs (the others being Air Force General Larry D. Welch and Army General John Shalikashvili)… > > Boorda died on May 16, 1996 after shooting himself in the chest.[9] The autopsy results were never released to the public. Boorda reportedly also left two suicide notes, neither of which was released publicly, but the notes were said to have been addressed to his wife and to his public information officer.[10] He was reported to have been distraught over a news media investigation, led by David Hackworth of Newsweek, into two Combat Distinguishing Devices (Combat “V”) he wore on the Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal and Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal service ribbons on his uniform. The “V” device is a miniature bronze letter V worn on certain medals and service ribbons, indicating valor in combat. Boorda had stopped wearing the V’s years before, but old photographs showed him wearing them in the 1980s. Newsweek later reported that, “Hackworth believed that wearing an undeserved combat valor pin was a grave matter of honor in the military, ‘the worst thing you can do.’” The suicide took place before Boorda met with the Newsweek reporters and before anyone had published anything on the matter of medals.[11] [Colin R. McMillan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_R._McMillan) > [@](#): > > Colin Riley McMillan (July 27, 1935 – July 24, 2003) was an Assistant United States Secretary of Defense under President George H. W. Bush during the Gulf War. He was awaiting confirmation as United States Secretary of the Navy in 2003 when he died from an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound in the head at his New Mexico ranch. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/55 "2014-10-02T17:26:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s very unlikely. The end of the war put a big halt on promotions. > > Matthew Ridgeway’s a good example. He was a respected and successful officer. He was a lieutenant colonel when the United States entered the war. Within four years, he was promoted five times. And then after 1945, he waited six more years for his next promotion. I don’t see where we disagree. Powells next promotion would have been to major general, and 6 years is a few in my book. With the Korean War, Malayan Emergency and Mau Mau uprising kicking off around 1950 it’s likely a lot of officers who ended ww2 near a promotion would have got their step up around that timeframe. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/56 "2014-10-02T18:07:01Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Who are you thinking of? The closest I can come is that you conflated two separate cases. > > [Admiral Jeremy M. Boorda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Michael_Boorda) BTW, there is video footage of President Clinton receiving the news of Admiral Boorda’s death: [News of Admiral Boorda’s suicide](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGlCUwn2YiE) ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/57 "2014-10-02T20:49:52Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Honestly, I think that the explanation is way more prosaic than that. Being a great coach and being a great player are mostly independent skills, and there are far more mediocre players than great onces, so pure probability says that you’ll find far more great coaches among the larger pool of people. > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I don’t think this is correct logic. Leo – Why isn’t this correct? It both seems plausible and as far as I can see is logically correct, too. If different properties A and B are uncorrelated in a population, and A is less common than not-A, then (A and B) will be less common than (not-A and B). So, if being a great player is not correlated with being a great coach, and (almost by definition), being a great player is uncommon, then great coaches who were also great players will be less common than great coaches who were not great players. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/58 "2014-10-02T21:00:10Z")
Do surgeons get promoted past colonel? Medical corps officers are typically commissioned as captains once they complete school and they typically don’t get much military training. Also, I understand that there are a lot of Powerpoint Rangers out there. Officers with good organizational/presentation skills who I would argue may not be the best leaders. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/59 "2014-10-03T02:28:36Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I didn’t realize that ROTC commissions nearly 2x the number of officers than the service academies or OCS; I thought the service academies generated the majority of new officers. Is there a heirarchy among those officers? Do you get a faster career track if you’re an Academy grad over an ROTC over an OCS? Is it easier to be in a more desired track (say, USAF fighter pilot) if your resume says Colorado Springs over Texas A&M? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779/60 "2014-10-03T03:47:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even in the modern military, there are still a few high-ranking officers who were never what you would call “ordinary soldiers”, but instead got their position through some form of technical skills. Computer pioneer Grace Hopper, who was a rear admiral, comes to mind. You can say that of just about all technical or professional specialists, though. In the case of officers who didn’t particularly shine at their service academies, but went on to achieve renown and flag rank, perhaps their school performance simply wasn’t a good predictor of how they would lead the men in their units in actual operations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-generals-who-were-lousy-soldiers/699779.md?page=4)