# Are there good reasons to be anti-free trade? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281 "2016-01-15T21:59:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/221 "2016-03-10T03:49:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite that wage floors do any of that? The cite is called eyeballs. Look at who is picking vegetables and manufacturing in factories overseas. Now drive through any poor neighborhood where people are un or underemployed and watch the activities people engage in. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/222 "2016-03-10T03:52:20Z")
If China wasn’t making those cheap goods, they’d be made here by imported labor. Either way, American workers lose. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/223 "2016-03-10T03:55:27Z")
> **[s\_ncfis08c03.pdf](https://www.purdue.edu/hhs/hdfs/fii/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/s_ncfis08c03.pdf)** > > 29.46 KB There. A link between unemployment and negative behavior. And if you don’t think a wage floor causes unemployment well you need to read some Econ 101. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/224 "2016-03-10T03:58:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If China wasn’t making those cheap goods, they’d be made here by imported labor. Either way, American workers lose. Or do the rational thing and eliminate wage floors and pay people market value and make up the difference in need with either a universal basic income or means tested welfare. That’s superior to the creation of systematic unemployment and paying all expenses and getting 0 productivity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/225 "2016-03-10T04:55:11Z")
If you do eliminate wage floors, then border control becomes even more important. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/226 "2016-03-10T07:19:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If you do eliminate wage floors, then border control becomes even more important. With no wage floor and a universal basic income for citizens only would that spur a demand for migrant labor greater than current demand? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/227 "2016-03-10T18:00:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Blame wage floors that keep people idle or engaged in destructive activities for that. We have a large surplus of uneconomically viable labor under current labor regulations. Why shouldn’t the capitalist class take their capital and IP to other labor suppliers? It’s a global economy. Yeah and this thread is about whether or not enabling that globalization of labor is good for the people who earn their living from labor in THIS country. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/228 "2016-03-10T18:01:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite that wage floors do any of that? Or more importantly that the wage floor we have do that. I assume a wage floor at $100/hour would have that sort of effect. $10/hour, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/229 "2016-03-10T18:05:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The cite is called eyeballs. Look at who is picking vegetables and manufacturing in factories overseas. Now drive through any poor neighborhood where people are un or underemployed and watch the activities people engage in. And why should we expose our domestic labor to foreign and illegal competition if its going to drive them to do back breaking labor for starvation wages? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/230 "2016-03-10T18:06:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If China wasn’t making those cheap goods, they’d be made here by imported labor. Either way, American workers lose. You mean that imported labor that would be subject to the same labor laws as our domestic labor? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/231 "2016-03-10T18:09:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [Family Impact Seminars - TrestleLink](https://www.purdue.edu/hhs/hdfs/fii/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/s_ncfis08c03.pdf) > > There. A link between unemployment and negative behavior. And if you don’t think a wage floor causes unemployment well you need to read some Econ 101. Yes, its all pretty simple if you have a simple understanding of economics. Labor economics studies things like minimum wages and the overwhelming majority of labor economists agree that moderate minimum wage laws to not appreciably increase unemployment. > **[Everything you need to know about the minimum wage](https://www.vox.com/2014/5/21/18079894/minimum-wage-explained)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/232 "2016-03-10T18:11:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > With no wage floor and a universal basic income for citizens only would that spur a demand for migrant labor greater than current demand? This is probably a decent answer but none of it works without the universal basic income. I could support dropping the minimum wage if we had universal basic income but right now minimum wage is the least imperfect answer we can achieve. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/233 "2016-03-17T10:03:05Z")
Hey, I’m pitting all you free-trade liars ( **WillFarnaby** and **bdlysabba** ): > **[Free Trade Liars](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=787342)** > > So, I’m done discussing free trade in GD, because there’s a bunch of lying assholes in GD. So, here’s the thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19146219 And here’s bldysabba being a lying piece of shit: So, first of all, I... Oh, and **Stringbean** , if you pop up in this thread again, I’ll pit you there. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/234 "2016-03-17T11:45:26Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Hey, I’m pitting all you free-trade liars ( **WillFarnaby** and **bdlysabba** ): > > [Free Trade Liars - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=787342) > > Oh, and **Stringbean** , if you pop up in this thread again, I’ll pit you there. You can’t call other posters liars in GD or Elections. Warning issued. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/235 "2016-03-17T20:09:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes, that is how most of the great industrial economies of the world including those of America, Germany, and Japan developed. Yes what? America, Germany and Japan were heavily protectionist for most of their economic history, including periods of economic growth much higher than since WW2. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/236 "2016-03-17T21:43:46Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Yes what? > > America, Germany and Japan were heavily protectionist for most of their economic history, including periods of economic growth much higher than since WW2. Qin is suspended so he cant respond but I am pretty confident that’s what he meant. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/237 "2016-03-17T22:11:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or more importantly that the wage floor we have do that. I assume a wage floor at $100/hour would have that sort of effect. $10/hour, not so much. [Minimum wage effect? January to June job losses for Seattle area restaurants (-1,300) largest since Great Recession](http://www.aei.org/publication/minimum-wage-effect-january-to-june-job-losses-for-seattle-area-restaurants-1300-largest-since-great-recession/) > [@](#): > > The chart above shows that the Emerald City MSA started experiencing a decline in restaurant employment around the first of the year (when the state minimum wage increased to $9.47 per hour, the highest state minimum wage in the country), and the 1,300 job loss between January and June is the largest decline over that period since 2009 during the Great Recession (data here). The loss of 1,000 restaurant jobs in May following the minimum wage increase in April was the largest one month job decline since a 1,300 drop in January 2009, again during the Great Recession. In contrast to the January-June loss of restaurant jobs in the Seattle area: a) restaurant employment nationally increased by 130,700 jobs (and by 1.2%) during that same period (data here), b) overall employment in the Seattle MSA increased 1.2% and by 21,800 jobs (data here) and c)non-Seattle MSA restaurant employment in Washington increased 3.2% and by 2,800 jobs The vast majority of studies around the world have found negative employment effects due to minimum wages. Canadian studies have consistently found negative employment effects. The consensus survey of OECD studies has found negative employment effects. Minimum wage deniers glom onto the one outlier study that failed to find an effect (Card and Kreuger), just like climate deniers cling to the odd peer-reviewed paper that seems to support what they want to believe while ignoring the vast preponderance of evidence which suggests otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/238 "2016-03-17T22:13:02Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Yes what? > > America, Germany and Japan were heavily protectionist for most of their economic history, including periods of economic growth much higher than since WW2. ‘Heavily’ protectionist? What percentage of imports and exports were affected by trade tariffs and barriers? And how high were those tariffs? And can you point to some studies (any studies) that looked at what happened in those industries when the tariffs were lifted, or compared their growth to the growth of trade-dependent industries where there were no tariffs or smaller ones? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/239 "2016-03-17T22:39:06Z")
It’s easy to understand the demand for trade protectionism on both the right and the left. Unionized workers face wage pressure in a global economy. Small businesses have to compete against global conglomerates. But the benefit of free trade is one of the most settled issues in economics, with with widespread agreement from Paul Krugman to Milton Friedman. Only deniers refuse to accept the consensus. Most of the arguments against it, like the ‘infant industry’ argument are completely bogus. The problem with ‘infant’ industries is that they tend to never grow up - so long as they can accumulate political power to go along with their growing economic power. The same goes for the notion that free trade doesn’t work if the people you are trading with don’t have the same level of environmental or worker protections or pay their workers much less. That’s just special pleading. For a 3rd world country, cheap labor IS their comparative advantage. It’s what they have to sell, and if you decide you aren’t going to deal with them for moral reasons because they don’t pay their workers what you think they should be paid (and what they can’t afford), then you are just condemning those people to poverty by cutting off the bottom rung on the ladder to prosperity. Shame on you. It also needs to be pointed out that ‘American’ products today are filled with global intermediate products. The most ‘American’ car in the U.S. contains 25% foreign parts, and autos are one of the least globalized industries. So if you decide to slap a 45% tariff on China, and your cars depend on Chinese semiconductors, Chinese rubber, or other parts from China, your cars are going to become a whole lot more expensive on the global market, which means you’re going to kill your own sales and jobs anyway. The global supply chain today is complex and massive. Every product is a global product. The trend in manufacturing has been away from ‘build it all in-house’ to increased specialization. We have realized that it’s better to focus our attention on where we add the most value, and outsource the other stuff (locally, nationally, internationally). You can no longer separate foreign products from domestic ones. A Chinese-made iPhone has American software and hardware from China, South Korea, and Europe. Some on the right like protectionism for nativist reasons - get rid of the damned foreigners and their job-killing ways! On the left, Unions lobby for trade protection so they can sustain higher salaries for union workers. But more importantly, it puts serious constraints on how interventionist a government can be. Local ‘stimulus’ programs are much less effective in a globalized economy. High local taxes makes foreign goods more competitive, or causes businesses to move their operations. Statists don’t like that. They’d rather have a captive population that can’t avoid their demands. But the facts are that globalization and free trade are important and very powerful concepts for lifting global poverty and helping to ensure global peace. ---
**Author:** ![txst16](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@txst16](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txst16)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281/240 "2016-03-17T22:43:44Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Arguments against free trade that seem the most legitimate to me hinge on the idea that the playing field isn’t particularly level, with one party not enforcing things like environmental regulations or something. I note too that the TPP agreement seems to contain language that would let a company sue if a party to the agreement enacts regulation against it (or at least that’s how it was explained to me), e.g. Phillip Morris suing the government of X because it’s running an anti-smoking campaign. > > However, these arguments are against the details of particular agreements, rather than systemic problems with free trade. I feel that anti-free trade rhetoric is economically naive at best and xenophobic and racist at worst. > > Am I wrong? > > Thanks, > Rob If you believe these arguments to be naive then maybe you should consider lobbying this issue. I wouldn’t say that you’re not right. Free trade is hard to imagine in a world so far in dept. Where debt may drive us forward its hard to imagine shifting into a world that has no use for it. That process alone is hard to grasp (for me at least). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-good-reasons-to-be-anti-free-trade/743281.md?page=13)