# Are there kids who absolutly cannot be educated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494 "2013-01-17T10:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/21 "2013-01-21T04:19:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Dangerosa** , what would you recommend as a solution for your friend’s little girl? Let’s assume there’s enough reason to believe the little girl is smart and just can’t show it right now. If you were in charge, how would you allocate resources so that her and everyone else’s needs were adequately addressed. The way its set up now, public schools don’t adequately address anyone’s needs. Assuming you don’t get unlimited resources to educate every single unique snowflake to reach their best possible potential? I’d target the middle 95% of the Bell Curve for school dollars - anyone needing services beyond the middle 95%, the dollars should be funded outside of the school system - medical insurance, social services, privately, scholarships. I say this as the parent of a gifted child. Maybe, in doing that the 80% in the middle (probably skewing to the high end) MIGHT get their needs adequately met. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/22 "2013-01-22T05:44:56Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Read [this page](http://www.ddc.wv.gov/Training/PartnersinPolicymaking/PIPCurriculum/Pages/InclusiveEducation.aspx). It’ll help you understand the laws regarding inclusion in the US. > > As of the 90s, no, we don’t tend to send many kids to “special” schools anymore, and although some do exist for children with autism etc the decission to send them there is the parents’. And yet, it’s the only country I know of (there may be others) which has a university [where the working language is signed and which was originally founded for the deaf](http://www.gallaudet.edu/). On one hand this seems strangely exclusive; on the other, it comes from someone deciding that the deaf needed to get access to tertiary education at a time when most other countries hadn’t even realized they could get through primary (many still haven’t). A lot of these things, in any country, are done a way or another “for historical reasons” which come down to “it was the best thing we could think of at the time”. Spain prefers integrated schools but also has some specific ones; a kid who is unable to attend school for medical reasons gets waived from educational requirements. The school my nephew attends uses students to assist their classmates; he’s currently the helper of a classmate who’s two years older (he spent several years getting a lot of medical treatments), and who will some day be counted as “graduated compulsory education at age 18” but also as “graduated compulsory education in the expected time”, assuming he goes on normally from now on. The classmate also happens to be hard of hearing, which is why he gets a helper. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/23 "2013-01-22T10:47:35Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > This. I have no problem with having the kids in a social setting for a few hours a day, but when one child takes up resources that could help ten other kids, I have to wonder where we can and should draw the line. Lynn, YES! THIS! And in addition there’s no way in hell that the kid will ever visably benefit from the resources. I’m not being a Republican ( ie "stupid sped kids. Most sped kids can get at least functional academic abilty) Like you could just park the kid in one of those Sensory Rooms all day… But instead they have parents who scream about how they need “best of the best” stuff, and they usually require all sorts of supports and things. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/24 "2013-01-23T02:23:57Z")
Well, where do you draw the line? Asian countries like China, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, etc have a pretty hardcore “up or out” philosophy to kids starting no later than the first grade. You either lead the class by 6 or 7, and stay at the top of the pack, or you get managed out. My daughter may never be able to be unsupervised. I do know however that having good resources at school, Cadillac private insurance subsidized ABA therapy and loving home environment gives her a chance. We as a country should be investing more into education to meet all needs. Full stop. Instead of worrying about the hypothetical inflation boogeyman and solving the deficit right now. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/25 "2013-01-24T08:18:54Z")
There are some children who are considered “uneducable” but “trainable.” All of the austic children for Nashville schools were just across the hall from my classroom. Their abilities differed greatly. Some are very bright and educable. Some were taught to deliver papers to the classroom and others might spend months learning to make a bed. Every child deserves a chance. You can’t tell by just looking at them. If teachers are willing to wipe their bottoms, surely others can be patient enough and giving enough to allow them to learn what they can. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/26 "2013-01-25T10:50:40Z")
and again ChinaGuy and Zoe, I wasn’t even talking about “affected but still somewhat functional” kids. Those kids can pick up on skills and may be in sheltered workshops or even day programs. I am talking about the extreme profound kids, who cannot even smile or may not even know who a particular person is. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/27 "2013-01-25T11:31:30Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Granted these cases are rare but it still seems like there are still a significant number of kids who are just…like they need to be in an insistution somewhere. What does everyone else think? I think I want to know more about how rare it is before I get too worked up about it, to be honest. Are we talking 10 kids nationwide? 100? 10,000? What percentage of the general education fund are they taking up? Do they/ should they get funding from other sources, like medical insurance, for the medical needs attended to in school? Do (some of? all of? none of?) the funds used to make education accessible for these kids benefit other students or staff? Say, needing to put in elevators or wheelchair restrooms - that benefits everyone who breaks a leg and uses that resource on a temporary basis. So it’s expensive, and might not have happened without the need to accommodate, but it benefits more than just the permanently disabled. Do teachers get continuing education or special certificates to teach these kids, and then use or adapt that new knowledge to better benefit the rest of their students? If the absolute numbers are small, or the percentage is small, then I can find the compassion not to be too bothered by it. I just don’t know enough about the issue to really have an informed opinion, but I do have lots of questions. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/28 "2013-01-25T11:43:08Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think I want to know more about how rare it is before I get too worked up about it, to be honest. Are we talking 10 kids nationwide? 100? 10,000? Okay, 2-3% of people have an intellectual disability. Of that 2-3%, 98-99% of them are in the mild to severe range, and all of those people are going to be able to learn some things, so that leaves 1-2% in the profound range, which is the sort of person the OP means, and only some of those are under the 21ish year old cut off for public school. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/29 "2013-01-25T11:56:01Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Okay, 2-3% of people have an intellectual disability. Of that 2-3%, 98-99% of them are in the mild to severe range, and all of those people are going to be able to learn some things, so that leaves 1-2% in the profound range, which is the sort of person the OP means, and only some of those are under the 21ish year old cut off for public school. Thanks! Do we have data about how many of those \<1-2% have parents who choose to mainstream them in public schools, vs. homeschooling, unschooling or long term residential care (which is what we call “institutionalizing” now)? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/30 "2013-01-28T01:08:06Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Granted these cases are rare but it still seems like there are still a significant number of kids who are just…like they need to be in an insistution somewhere. What does everyone else think? Being in an institution is a completely different issue. People with severe disabilites who can’t learn don’t need to live in an institution any more than anyone else. That’s about where they live, not where they go to school. The consesnsus is that people with disabilities should live in their communities, not big institutions. 14 states have already completely eliminated state institutions, and most of the rest are in the process of closing them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/31 "2013-01-28T01:10:07Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > There are some children who are considered “uneducable” but “trainable.” All of the austic children for Nashville schools were just across the hall from my classroom. Their abilities differed greatly. Some are very bright and educable. Some were taught to deliver papers to the classroom and others might spend months learning to make a bed. Every child deserves a chance. You can’t tell by just looking at them. If teachers are willing to wipe their bottoms, surely others can be patient enough and giving enough to allow them to learn what they can. Just FYI, the terms “educable” and “trainable” are out of date. They aren’t put into two neat little categories like that any more (nor are typical students for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/32 "2013-01-28T01:14:08Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Lynn, YES! THIS! And in addition there’s no way in hell that the kid will ever visably benefit from the resources. I’m not being a Republican ( ie "stupid sped kids. Most sped kids can get at least functional academic abilty) > Like you could just park the kid in one of those Sensory Rooms all day… > But instead they have parents who scream about how they need “best of the best” stuff, and they usually require all sorts of supports and things. You can’t judge what a kid needs or can learn unless you know the details of his Individualized Education Plan. Which you don’t, unless the parents share it with you, because they are private. So you can’t assume that a kid is “wasting” resources. Keep in mind that your child could become profoundly disabled at any time. He/she could get hit by a bus or whatever, God forbid. And you would have access to the same services, and you better believe you’d suddenly think they were a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/33 "2013-01-28T01:21:17Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > So, I’m confused: does the US not have schools separated by abilities at all? In the Netherlands, for example, special education is divided into four clusters: > > 1. Children with a visual handicap > 2. Children with hearing problems > 3. Children with developmental disabilities > 4. Children with severe behavioural problems > > Most children, if they have problems of just one kind, can attend normal schools. These children get assistance from the government (called “a backpack”) that goes directly to the school, to help pay for special facilities. The children who attend the special ed schools tend to have multiple, and very severe problems. On top of that, if the situation is severe enough, children can be excused from compulsory education. But children with severe problems wouldn’t be sent to a normal school. How would we expect teachers to cope? > > My MIL works in a cluster three school, with children with severe developmental and physical disabilities. They have a teacher for two children, on average. These children need help with every single thing they do. There is no point sending them to a normal school. Gracer, thanks for the interesting description of how they do it over there. That’s not much different from our system, though it varies from state to state and school system to school system. By national law, children with special needs have a right to a public education. Sometimes that involves the public schools paying for private tuition at a special school, but usually they are in public schools. When there are extra needs the child has that the teacher doesn’t have time to deal with, they often hire an aide to help. Children often have special education teachers to teach certain subjects, part of the day or the entire day. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/34 "2013-01-28T01:22:44Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > “Persistant vegetative state”? You can’t educate someone who’s in a coma. > > Are you saying they’re wheeling this comatose kid into a school and claiming to be “educating” her? Or do you mean she’s enrolled on the books as a “student” without actually being one? Because in the second case, I’d guess that there’s some benefit to having her enrolled, that it qualifies her for something. > > If they’re actually wheeling comatose kids into schools, I have no idea what they could be hoping to achieve. No, of course they aren’t. What’s happening is somebody is looking at some kids who can’t talk and have little motor ability and assuming they “can’t learn” without actually knowing anything about them. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/35 "2013-01-28T23:21:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You can’t judge what a kid needs or can learn unless you know the details of his Individualized Education Plan. Which you don’t, unless the parents share it with you, because they are private. So you can’t assume that a kid is “wasting” resources. > > Keep in mind that your child could become profoundly disabled at any time. He/she could get hit by a bus or whatever, God forbid. And you would have access to the same services, and you better believe you’d suddenly think they were a good idea. Actually. I think that when you are spending ten times the amount you spend on an average student…and there are not enough books for average students, you can definately say we are wasting resources on one child at the expense of others. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/36 "2013-01-29T01:15:26Z")
I think people forget that it is even more costly to the State (my example is my home state of California) to institutionalize people with severe disabilities rather than try to integrate them into public schools and residential settings. This in turn, is a savings towards the state, which now has money freed up from one budget which would (and should) be available to cover for that disabled child in a public school setting. Here, money is earmarked separately for the [Special Education budget in California](http://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/aa/se/). My guess is that other states do something similar. The real question is…what are the school districts actually doing with _that_ money that is allotted for [Special Education](http://www.sacbee.com/2012/04/04/4389390/budget-cuts-change-in-approach.html)? I’ve seen some SE budgets shifted away from the disabled students and into general educaction funds to pay for general education materials/staffing. Some schools co-mingle the monies the way they see fit, others stick to the allotments. In our county (San Bernardino), our school districts want disabled students so they can receive the attached/allotted budget that comes with the student. As parents of a moderate autistic son, we toured quite a few schools in our town to see how the money was allotted for SE kids by looking at classrooms, inquiring about staffing, aides, materials and inclusion programs that would work with our son’s IEP. Some schools failed miserably (the allotted money was not spent on SE students, but on GE students) and some were better at managing it. We picked a school that actually did the most for their SE class and the teacher was well regarded along with sufficient number of aides. Maybe some of you see it as money wasted with what is being done now, when it was FAR more costly than what was done in the past had we continued on that path before the Lanternman Act in 1969, which led to the de-institutionalization of the state-ran facilities that were deplorable, yet expensive to operate. Some of the clients we serve in our day program did come from these institutions and they are enjoying more with what we have to offer at a fraction of the cost of being institutionalized. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/37 "2013-01-29T01:49:17Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Actually. I think that when you are spending ten times the amount you spend on an average student…and there are not enough books for average students, you can definately say we are wasting resources on one child at the expense of others. Ah, but the problem is that you picked “ten” out of a hat, and maybe someday they’ll pick a smaller number and then YOUR kid will be the one who is getting wasted resources on. And even if it’s not because your kid is special ed, it could easily be that your kid is getting wasted money on band, or drama, or sports or whatever. It sounds like you don’t actually have a special ed child so you’re only thinking about your self-interest, like most people. I can’t give people a conscience, but I can point out that you could have a special ed kid at any time too, even if you have a “normal” kid now. Children can get diseases or be in accidents that cause brain injury at any time. God forbid you have to be on the other end of that “wasted” money. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/38 "2013-01-29T09:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe some of you see it as money wasted with what is being done now, when it was FAR more costly than what was done in the past had we continued on that path before the Lanternman Act in 1969, which led to the de-institutionalization of the state-ran facilities that were deplorable, yet expensive to operate. Some of the clients we serve in our day program did come from these institutions and they are enjoying more with what we have to offer at a fraction of the cost of being institutionalized. I’m not nessarily arguing for reinsisstutionization of severe/profound kids. Maybe we need to have a different funding stream for the education of those kids. Like maybe the funding for those kids needs to come from the Department of Developmental Services rather then Dept. of Education. Heck, maybe it should come from the budget of the Pro Life organizations! That in turn would fund day programs for those extreme profound/severe kids. They wouldn’t be locked in a room, but at the same time, they’d have a trained staff and be able to do some activities…It just really seems strange for them to be funded by the same department that pushes academics…know what I’m saying? Even mild MR kids (80%) can develop functional academic skills. Besides, I thought that MANY profound kids were and ARE in private pediatric nursing homes. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/39 "2013-01-29T09:55:41Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Ah, but the problem is that you picked “ten” out of a hat, and maybe someday they’ll pick a smaller number and then YOUR kid will be the one who is getting wasted resources on. And even if it’s not because your kid is special ed, it could easily be that your kid is getting wasted money on band, or drama, or sports or whatever. > > It sounds like you don’t actually have a special ed child so you’re only thinking about your self-interest, like most people. I can’t give people a conscience, but I can point out that you could have a special ed kid at any time too, even if you have a “normal” kid now. Children can get diseases or be in accidents that cause brain injury at any time. God forbid you have to be on the other end of that “wasted” money. Or maybe she might actually know a lot of special ed kids. Look I WAS a special ed kid myself. A lot of them can and do develop functional academic abiltiies. Saying that SOME special ed kids seem to cost the system a lot of money (with not a lot to show for it) is not a slippery slope. It’s a FACT. I did encounter that attitude in the mainstream (Oh she’s just gonna end up on disability) and I have relatively mild issues. Many kids can be independent…BUT there’s still a few thousand that will basicly sit in a wheelchair not even knowing who their caretakers are. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494/40 "2013-01-29T13:55:26Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Or maybe she might actually know a lot of special ed kids. But she still picked “ten” out of a hat. > [@](#): > > Look I WAS a special ed kid myself. A lot of them can and do develop functional academic abiltiies. Saying that SOME special ed kids seem to cost the system a lot of money (with not a lot to show for it) is not a slippery slope. It’s a FACT. But we can go down the slope on the other side, like this: there was a time when people said it was a waste of money to educate kids like YOU, with only mild special needs. > [@](#): > > I did encounter that attitude in the mainstream (Oh she’s just gonna end up on disability) and I have relatively mild issues. Many kids can be independent…BUT there’s still a few thousand that will basicly sit in a wheelchair not even knowing who their caretakers are. I doubt there are even a few thousand like that. It’s extremely rare to send a kid to school who has almost no ability to perceive or has little brain function. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-kids-who-absolutly-cannot-be-educated/647494.md?page=3)