# Are There Many Famous Musicians Who Can't Read Music? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 25, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-many-famous-musicians-who-cant-read-music/547932 "2010-07-25T07:32:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-many-famous-musicians-who-cant-read-music/547932/61 "2011-10-26T13:18:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Do you mean pitch is represented by height on the staff, but length isn’t analogously notated by, say, width of a note on the staff? (Like, say, in piano roll notation?) That’s the way I interpreted **ianzin** ’s comment. > [@](#): > > It’s odd–I don’t really find it illogical or nonsensical at all, but, then again, I have been raised in the system. The notation used for duration is “illogical” in the sense that a note becomes _shorter_ when something is _added_ to it, except that adding a dot makes the note longer. :dubious: Of course, it’s “logical” in the sense that it works. > [@](#): > > I really can’t think of an alternative notation system for scoring that would work better. What do you propose as more logical? I’m curious as to what competing systems there may be. Check out [Desirable Criteria for Alternative Music Notation Systems](http://musicnotation.org/musicnotations/criteria.html). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-many-famous-musicians-who-cant-read-music/547932/64 "2016-02-15T12:25:52Z")
> [@Gus\_Handsome](#): > > Am I correct to assume the above or are there musician’s out there who are self-taught, can’t read a note, don’t understand theory, and yet they are hugely successful on their own, or they play in a band for someone really famous. Yep. The more familar names have already been mentioned, along with caveats that depending on the standards imposed, there may be people who can read music up to a point who are still described as “illiterate” by folks which different needs or preferences than the musician in question. > [@usedtobe](#): > > Any/all blind musicians, obviously. > [@Sinisterniik](#): > > This is also ignoring some folks who are unable to read music notation, in particular the blind. [Braille music notation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braille_music) > [@ianzin](#): > > In the classical music world, people are trained to read and write music using the traditional stave and dots. It’s a thoroughly illogical and nonsensical system (e.g. pitch is conveyed analogously but duration is not) which is only the way it is because of centuries of traditions piled on top of one another. Doesn’t strike me as being any more illogical and jury-rigged than any other writing system. Let’s consider English spelling or the pros and cons of Asian ideogram writing systems - no more or less crazy than traditional western music notation. Comfort depends a lot on what your’e trained in and used to. > [@ianzin](#): > > In most fields of popular music, there is little emphasis placed on reading and writing music because it’s simply an irrelevant skill. Nobody needs the stave and dots to create the music or to play it. And this is an important thing to grasp - many forms of music don’t require written notation. Although I’ve been reading piano music fluently for 45 years now, when I ventured into playing traditional folk music on guitar I largely didn’t bother. Rather like some of the early church notation, I’d have the lyrics of a ballad written down and scribble crib notes about chords above certain words to jog my memory about what to play when. Why? Because that’s all that I needed for what I was doing. There are some people who didn’t even bother with that. Different instruments and different musical forms have different needs. Musicians use what’s useful for them. > [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve seen Elton interviewed and he mentioned his classical piano training. So, yes he can read music. Billy Joel is classically trained too. Billy Joel has performed as a classical musician, so yes, presumably he can read music just fine as that’s generally considered a necessary skill for that musical genre. Elton might have been classically trained, which would presume reading musical notation, but I could see him forgetting how to do so if he hasn’t used those skills in several decades due to lack of need. One of my gripes about traditional piano training is the over-emphasis on classical forms. Don’t get me wrong - I play a little Beethoven and Bach myself but that’s not what drew me into music. If people aren’t having fun with the instrument they won’t continue with it, and if a person is interested in jazz or pop or whatever then draw them in with that. If someone is interested in jazz then developing their ear and learning improvisational skills is going to be more important than absolute adherence to a written score. > [@Jet\_Jaguar](#): > > Does tablature count as reading music? I would consider it “real written music”. Guitar players have different needs than concert violinists, and their musical notation should help not hinder them. Like I said, I’ve been reading piano notation for decades, but when I play at guitar (really, I’m not particularly good at string instruments) tablature is much, much more useful even if I don’t read it as fluently as notes and staves. > [@Jet\_Jaguar](#): > > A Lot of people dismiss tab as some modern invention of the internet, but it actually has a long tradition as well, dating back to the early Renaissance. Bwuh? Silly kids these days, they probably don’t believe phones existed before Apple, either, right? 😃 > [@Jet\_Jaguar](#): > > Tab is more practical since the guitar fretboard isn’t laid out in a linear fashion. The same note can be played in several different locations on the neck (for example, the note on the 6th string 10th fret is the same as the 5th string 5th fret, and the 4th string open), and it takes some of the guesswork out of the process. ^ This. It’s more useful for guitar than staves and dots. Nothing wrong with it, unless you’re some sort of musical snob that looks down on guitar playing and/or pop music. > [@Jet\_Jaguar](#): > > Anyway, if by “read music” you mean “read standard notation”, then it’s been my experience that most guitarists can’t read standard notation. The ones who can generally learned it on another instrument before they picked up guitar. ^ And this. > [@pulykamell](#): > > I guess this has puzzled me, especially as a musician who can read fluently in whatever clef you want to throw at me (though much more slowly with alto and tenor clefs): why do people think there’s a connection between proficient, creative musicianship with musical reading skills? I blame it on old fashioned instructional methods that prized classical training to play other peoples’ compositions over pop/folk/ethnic/improv music. One genre is held as “serious” music and the rest dismissed as lesser. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Now, don’t get me wrong. I think there is definitely much to be gained from knowing how to read and write music. But there is little connection that I’ve seen between musicians who can read music well and musical creativity. Learning to read music can be useful just as dabbling in other genres can be useful to a musician - it’s one of many, many options out there but it’s not essential to being a good musician. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-many-famous-musicians-who-cant-read-music/547932.md?page=3)