# Are there more submissive males now thanks to gender equality? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471 "2017-06-09T01:29:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/1 "2017-06-09T01:29:35Z")
Okay so this may be an odd question but here’s my reasoning. Back a few decades ago, it was more typical for a women to be quitely submissive towards her man, back in those days women weren’t subjected to as much gender equality as they are now. A women today is subjected to countless examples of women being equals to men. Such as MMA fighters, rappers, or just in general about relationships. For example my dads grandpa married a women who quietly allowed him to abuse his family. Her whole life she was inheritly submissive and according to what I’ve been told it’s because she felt like that was her role, all she knew was to be a caring wife. She wasn’t capable of being competent enough to fend off her husband let alone call the cops on him. I’m just assuming here but this was more common back in the day than it is now, relatively. Back in the 50s women were more likely to play the house wife, and stay at home taking care of kids cleaning and cooking. Now in days women are much more outgoing, they don’t seem to be as submissive or fragile as they were persevered back in the 50s. So what I’m asking here is, because of all the advancements in gender equality and womens rights, has society caused women to take on the role of a man more often than they used to. I mean that in a sexual, financial and relationship way. Has the way society and media portray women effected the modern womens behaviors? So statistically if anyone knows, are there more submissive males today than there used to be decades ago. If there is an increase, wouldn’t it be safe to connect the reason for that increase to the subjection of female equality? Has being told women are equal to men affected modern relationships? I’ve only been alive for 21 years, so I can’t speak from experience but I believe there are far more submissive men now then there were back in the 50s. And I believe it’s the result of how society has portrayed women to be equals and sometimes superior. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/2 "2017-06-09T01:42:41Z")
Why is the only option either dominance or submission? Equality (on balance, not for every single issue) is the goal, is it not? And surely, even if perfect equality is not achieved, there is a continuum that covers every relationship, and my sense is that more relationships tend towards equality than otherwise. I’m not sure what a submissive male would even be. Always gives in to his woman? Does the housework and cooking while still holding a full time job (like my mother did in the 50’s and 60’s and most of the 70’s)? What they used to call “hen-pecked?” I see you are very young. I think your premise is just way off. My parents married in 1946. In front of other people my mother generally gave my father his way, but if something bothered her, she let him know about it in private. They were a partnership, each bringing their own strengths and abilities to the table. I wouldn’t call my mother submissive, more like she was polite and reserved. I’m curious what factors are influencing your question. Did you grow up in the US or somewhere else? What was your parents’ relationship like? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/3 "2017-06-09T01:57:11Z")
First off, assume NOTHING. Relationships between two people are far more complicated than they look on the surface. “Back in the 50s” the woman in a traditional relationship didn’t just play the housewife, she ran the house. She prioritized the household budget, chose the furnishings, decor, menu and often the non-work clothing of the husband, maintained social relationships and pretty much was the final authority on raising the children. Sure, the man earned the money, which gave him the authority to choose where he’d work and they lived. Some men used their economic power, along with the traditional “head of the family” attitudes to dominate their wives, but in real life, the relationship dynamics were far more nuanced. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/4 "2017-06-09T02:12:12Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Okay so this may be an odd question but here’s my reasoning. > > Back a few decades ago, it was more typical for a women to be quitely submissive towards her man, back in those days women weren’t subjected to as much gender equality as they are now. A women today is subjected to countless examples of women being equals to men. Such as MMA fighters, rappers, or just in general about relationships. For example my dads grandpa married a women who quietly allowed him to abuse his family. Her whole life she was inheritly submissive and according to what I’ve been told it’s because she felt like that was her role, all she knew was to be a caring wife. She wasn’t capable of being competent enough to fend off her husband let alone call the cops on him. > > I’m just assuming here but this was more common back in the day than it is now, relatively. Back in the 50s women were more likely to play the house wife, and stay at home taking care of kids cleaning and cooking. Now in days women are much more outgoing, they don’t seem to be as submissive or fragile as they were persevered back in the 50s. So what I’m asking here is, because of all the advancements in gender equality and womens rights, has society caused women to take on the role of a man more often than they used to. I mean that in a sexual, financial and relationship way. Has the way society and media portray women effected the modern womens behaviors? > > So statistically if anyone knows, are there more submissive males today than there used to be decades ago. If there is an increase, wouldn’t it be safe to connect the reason for that increase to the subjection of female equality? Has being told women are equal to men affected modern relationships? I’ve only been alive for 21 years, so I can’t speak from experience but I believe there are far more submissive men now then there were back in the 50s. And I believe it’s the result of how society has portrayed women to be equals and sometimes superior. I need to show this to my 85-year-old Mom. She’ll laugh her ass off. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/5 "2017-06-09T02:48:45Z")
I think I can speak for many men of my culture: When I am asked what I am afraid of in this world everyone who knows me can predict what my answer will be: my wife. And is only half in jest. But this is no big historical change. Anecdotally my father was not submissive and my mother took no orders. My father-in-law pretty much always did what my mother-in-law told him to do and wore what she decided he would wear, including to work, from their wedding night on. Growing up it was the case in most of my friends’ households - if anyone was the boss it was the mom not the dad. FWIW I hold a full time job and do the cooking. But I am simply the better cook and I like the task. If it’s her turn to make dinner because I am working late what she’ll make is the phone call for delivery. And hopefully the decision of hat it is before I get home! I do the investing and she pays the bills. As to abuse … it happens now too and many still stay quiet on it. No data but I highly doubt it is decreased. 2008 lay of the land per a [Pew survey](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2008/09/25/women-call-the-shots-at-home-public-mixed-on-gender-roles-in-jobs/) is that women call the shots in the household more often. > [@](#): > > The survey finds that in 43% of all couples it’s the woman who makes decisions in more areas than the man. By contrast, men make more of the decisions in only about a quarter (26%) of all couples. And about three-in-ten couples (31%) split decision-making responsibilities equally. …in a large plurality of couples – 43% – men don’t have the final say in any of the four areas tested. These men either share decision-making with their partners or defer to them. … Men and women 65 or older are twice as likely as those under the age of 30 to say they and their partner share equally in making family decisions. But while age makes a difference, income doesn’t – at least not so much. In dual-income couples, it is the woman who has more say, regardless of whether she earns more or less than her partner. … The last bit at least implies something about a trend, but of course how the older couples are now is not necessarily how they were when they were younger. Similarly this study that finds [no meaningful differences across age groups](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235420250_Household_decision-making_Changes_of_female_and_male_partners%27_role) is only weak evidence. There is perhaps some reason to believe that decision-making locus of control has shifted some over multiple decades, at least according to [this article](http://faculty.missouri.edu/segerti/capstone/FamilyDecisionMaking.pdf): it’s a mixed bag of changes but overall increases in the woman’s power in family decision processes. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/6 "2017-06-09T02:54:34Z")
Well, it is a genre of porn now. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/7 "2017-06-09T03:00:26Z")
There are probably cultural differences between different ethnic groups as well as generational changes, but speaking only from my experience, I’d say the changes I’ve seen have been more in society and the workplace than in the family. I come from a long line of unsubmissive opinionated women though. I don’t see dominance vs. submission to be a very useful way to look at things, anyway. Cooperation vs. competition makes more sense to me, and I’m generally more in favor of the former most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/8 "2017-06-09T07:19:03Z")
Gender equality means a) It is not taken for granted by either hetero participant that the female person is going to submit to the male person b) It is not taken for granted that either person is going to submit to the other in some kind of permanent hierarchical sense c) The male person, if submissive in a relationship, is no more likely to be uncomfortable with the situatin than a female person would be, not having internalized some set of social values that say it’s supposed to be the other way around ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/9 "2017-06-09T07:20:57Z")
The hen-pecked browbeaten husband is a cliche that long predates modern feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/10 "2017-06-09T08:09:23Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The hen-pecked browbeaten husband is a cliche that long predates modern feminism. Indeed, even in the Book of Proverbs written thousands of years ago: “_Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife_ (Proverbs 21:9).” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/11 "2017-06-09T10:08:20Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > Well, it is a genre of porn now. What isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/12 "2017-06-09T12:03:13Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What isn’t? Congressional hearings, but I believe that’s about to change. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/13 "2017-06-09T14:06:32Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > A women today is subjected to countless examples of women being equals to men. Such as **MMA fighters** , **rappers** , or just in general about relationships. I love that MMA fighters and rappers are your specific examples of how women are more equal to men now vs. days of old. :smack: Hell, 50 years ago, there weren’t even male MMA fighters and rappers. If only your great great grandmother had the courage to take up kick-boxing!! To specifically answer the thread title question: no. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/14 "2017-06-09T14:45:44Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > Well, it is a genre of porn now. [Rule 34](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_34_(Internet_meme))—_“If it exists, there is porn of it – no exceptions”_ ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/15 "2017-06-09T14:56:18Z")
1. It’s not a zero sum game. Just because you seem to perceive fewer women as submissive, it does not logically follow that the universe must be balanced by formerly dominant men becoming submissive. 2. There’s still plenty of sub men and women and there’s still plenty of dom men and women. 3. “Wom **a** n” is the singular form, referring to one wom **a** n. “Wom **e** n” is the plural form referring to more than one wom **a** n. Please stop saying shit like this: “A wom **e** n today is…” What you meant is “A wom **a** n today is…” When you use the plural to refer to a singular, that makes me think you’re an idiot. Is that what you want? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/16 "2017-06-09T15:05:48Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Back a few decades ago, it was more typical for a women to be quitely submissive towards her man, back in those days women weren’t \*\*subjected \*\*to as much gender equality as they are now. What an odd way to phrase it - “subjected” to equality? Like it’s some sort of burden to be an equal? Like it was imposed unwillingly? Not that long ago it was legal to pay a woman less for the same work as a man (just as it was legal to pay a black man less for the same work as a white man), marital rape was unrecognized, women were unable to get credit on their own and needed a male co-signer to purchase property or a house, and beating a wife was allowed and legal. Under such circumstances can it be said that women _wanted_ to submit? Did slaves _want_ to be slaves or were they beaten into submission and returned to their abusers when they ran away? > [@](#): > > A women today is subjected to countless examples of women being equals to men. Such as MMA fighters, rappers, or just in general about relationships. Or, more commonly, women earning their own money, buying their own homes, and leaving assholes who beat them. You say this like it’s a bad thing. > [@](#): > > For example my dads grandpa married a women who quietly allowed him to abuse his family. Her whole life she was inheritly submissive and according to what I’ve been told it’s because she felt like that was her role, all she knew was to be a caring wife. He abused her throughout their marriage, yet you say she “allowed” him to do this. When a pedophile rapes a child does the child “allow” it? When a woman is raped does she “allow” it? If someone puts a gun to a man’s head and threatens to kill him if he doesn’t hand over his wallet and iPhone does he “allow” himself to be robbed? WTF is wrong with you and your perspective? > [@](#): > > Back in the 50s women were more likely to play the house wife, and stay at home taking care of kids cleaning and cooking. Yes, because they face social crap if they didn’t marry, they couldn’t possibly earn as much as a man doing the same thing, birth control was iffy at best, they couldn’t buy a home on their own… please, look into the lot of women just a little bit more. Legally, they were at a constant disadvantage. There wasn’t a whole lot of choice - stay married and have kids, because the Pill didn’t exist yet, or choose a life of inescapable poverty. > [@](#): > > So statistically if anyone knows, are there more submissive males today than there used to be decades ago. No. In the old days a submissive male would spend all day being submissive to other males, then go home to his wife, who could not easily escape him, and lord it over her, even beat her on a regular basis, to vent his frustrations. Nowadays, a male who does that is likely to find himself alone and whining on an incel or redpill forum. No more submissive males than before, it’s just that women have more freedom to dump them. > [@](#): > > I’ve only been alive for 21 years, so I can’t speak from experience but I believe there are far more submissive men now then there were back in the 50s. And I believe it’s the result of how society has portrayed women to be equals and sometimes superior. Ah. OK. Look, you need to learn more about the legal and social status of women in the 1950’s. Like, as I said, _it was legal to pay them less for doing the exact same work as a man_. Or not being able to get credit without a male cosigner. And so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/17 "2017-06-09T15:06:07Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > I’m just assuming here but this was more common back in the day than it is now, relatively. Back in the 50s women were more likely to play the house wife, and stay at home taking care of kids cleaning and cooking. Now in days women are much more outgoing, they don’t seem to be as submissive or fragile as they were persevered back in the 50s. So what I’m asking here is, because of all the advancements in gender equality and womens rights, has society caused women to take on the role of a man more often than they used to. I mean that in a sexual, financial and relationship way. Has the way society and media portray women effected the modern womens behaviors? _Play_ the housewife? Anyway, great equality for women doesn’t emasculate men, if that’s what you’re getting at. It’s a good thing, for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/18 "2017-06-09T15:27:54Z")
It definitely changed, and it happened virtually overnight. I came home from my advertising job one day, took off my fedora, and noticed that my smoking jacket and slippers weren’t in their place and my pipe hadn’t been packed. My sleeveless undershirts were still wadded up on the shag carpet, unwashed, the table was unset and there was absolutely no aroma of baked meat loaf emanating from the kitchen. I bellowed for my wife, who appeared in the doorway wearing _pants_— no lipstick or eye shadow, nor pearls— and a disquietingly queer expression that I had never before seen. She announced that forthwith, things would be different in our household, and proceeded to lay out exactly how they would differ, while I stood dumbfounded, mouth agape. I objected loudly, of course, and for days afterward I bore the telltale consequences of my protestations. I didn’t even know we _owned_ a rolling pin! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/19 "2017-06-09T16:56:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … In the old days a submissive male would spend all day being submissive to other males, then go home to his wife, who could not easily escape him, and lord it over her … Seriously I have a hard time parsing out what is meant by “submissive” in these contexts. I went with locus of control for decision-making for the purpose of trying to find actual data but is that really what is being meant? My wife makes most of our household decisions but from a practical perspective it’s mainly because she cares about them more and has stronger thoughts about what the right decision is. For most of these things I am much more “go with the flow” and adaptable, either way is okay … my only objection would be to spending an inordinate and excessive amount of time making the decision. Is that me being “submissive” in my household? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471/20 "2017-06-09T17:10:39Z")
I make all the important decisions in our household. Fortunately for me, my Wife has let me know that nothing important had come up in the past thirty years. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-more-submissive-males-now-thanks-to-gender-equality/788471.md?page=2)