# Are there no songs that need an E# ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 10, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-no-songs-that-need-an-e/722200 "2015-06-10T20:44:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-no-songs-that-need-an-e/722200/21 "2015-06-12T01:48:47Z")
> [@Jumpbass](#): > > In my experience, you run across Fb and Cb more often than E# and B#. Yeah, I would agree. I seem to come across Cb (enharmonic to B) quite often, usually in an Ab minor chord. E# and B# I’ll see most often in the context of an augmented A or E chord. (Or as a passing chromatic tone.) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-no-songs-that-need-an-e/722200/22 "2015-06-12T14:39:50Z")
Pianos are tuned to an equal-temperament scale, so the frequency ratio of notes E and F is identical to that of D and D#. In that sense E# = F. However, equal-temperament is a compromise (so that pianos don’t have to be retuned for different keys) and is not fundamental to the nature of music. For example, the Major Third interval (C-E) is intended to be notes in the ratio 5:4 (1.25) but with equal-temperament the ratio is imperfect, 1.26. Equal-temperament is the assumption today, but it needn’t be so: Mozart and Bach (with his _Well Tempered Clavier_) used their own tuning methods. In a violin using just temperament, E# will indeed be a slightly different note than F. [Read some comments here](http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/2007/01/the_tuning_tide_turns.html) or [a discussion at a well-known message board.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=113310) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-no-songs-that-need-an-e/722200/23 "2015-06-12T14:53:22Z")
Should we tell the OP about double-sharps and double-flats? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-no-songs-that-need-an-e/722200/24 "2015-06-12T15:23:37Z")
Only if you agree to clean up any mess generated by any poo-flinging from the nitpickers or asploding heads. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-no-songs-that-need-an-e/722200/25 "2015-06-12T16:56:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Should we tell the OP about double-sharps and double-flats? Although I have never seen one in the wild, and I am a little unsure as to the music theory reasons one would ever choose to notate it this way, even triple sharps and triple flats have been seen in music. [See under "3. Extreme accidentals](http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/donbyrd/CMNExtremes.htm). Double sharps and double flats, though, are common enough. (See, for example, the C diminished 7, with a double flatted B, enharmonic to A. For double sharp, see something like B+/B augmented.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-no-songs-that-need-an-e/722200.md?page=1)