# Are there other countries where the losing side in a war is still celebrated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 3, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318 "2012-08-03T16:48:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/1 "2012-08-03T16:48:07Z")
So, some people in the American South (and some in the North) like to fly the Confederate Battle Flag (or whatever it’s called), argue about the _casus belli_, and generally reminisce about their forebears who lost a war. _Excluding distinct ethnic/language groups_, does this happen elsewhere? I mean, nobody in England declares that the Roundheads will rise again. I’m fairly certain there isn’t a royalist movement in France, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/2 "2012-08-03T16:55:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m fairly certain there isn’t a royalist movement in France, and so on. Well, there is a royalist movement in France (two, in fact). They don’t celebrate, though. They have a yearly mass in memory of Louis XVI, however, if I’m not mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/3 "2012-08-03T16:59:27Z")
Depends what you mean by celebrated, and whether you are willing to accept “battle” or “campaign” rather than “war” as the object of celebration. The major commemoration of the military in Australia and New Zealand is not Armistice Day (Remembrance Day) or Memorial Day (we don’t have that), but Anzac Day. The date is April 25, which was the date that Australian and New Zealand forces landed at Gallipoli during WWI. Anzac Day has morphed, over the last century, into not just a commemoration of the Gallipoli campaign, but a more general memorial day for Australian and New Zealand service members. The Gallipoli campaign, however, still holds a central place in the commemorations, and in Australia and New Zealand’s collective consciousness, despite the fact that it was essentially a failed military campaign that resulted in considerable loss of life for the invading forces over the eight month siege. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/4 "2012-08-03T16:59:29Z")
[Skipper Clement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipper_Clement) is still celebrated in north Denmark. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/5 "2012-08-03T17:00:42Z")
In countries where such sentiments exist, the would be celebrants are probably afraid of social opprobrium if not (much) worse. If the loss is recent enough to evoke any passion at all, then its recent enough to be viewed as dangerous by polite society and the powers that be. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/6 "2012-08-03T17:00:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Excluding distinct ethnic/language groups_, This is the problem. The South/Confererate thing is basically an ethnic difference (Southerners vs. Northerners) so your distinction is arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/7 "2012-08-03T17:02:12Z")
In Serbia a lot of patriotism/jingoism/nationalism has been expressed through the “celebration” of the defeat at the Battle of Kosovo aka the ‘Field of Blackbirds’ in 1389 and the mythology surrounding it. ETA: Aw, crap - glossed over your ethnic exclusion. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/8 "2012-08-03T17:04:29Z")
More along the lines you’re looking for: What about Spain? The Republicans lost the Spanish Civil War to Franco’s forces, and Franco then ran the country for the next four decades. Yet now, it is Franco’s legacy that has been largely pushed aside (not forgotten, but not widely celebrated) in Spanish culture, which there are many Spaniards who celebrate and support the ideals of the Republican forces. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/9 "2012-08-03T17:06:12Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The South/Confererate thing is basically an ethnic difference (Southerners vs. Northerners) so your distinction is arbitrary. Granted ethnicity is in the eye of the beholder, but it seems like it would take a more than usually tortured definition to separate those two groups into different ethnicities. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/10 "2012-08-03T17:07:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Granted ethnicity is in the eye of the beholder, but it seems like it would take a more than usually tortured definition to separate those two groups into different ethnicities. IMHO. I agree. It stretches the definition of “ethnicity” beyond any useful boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/11 "2012-08-03T17:07:25Z")
Dammit, **Tamerlane** , I was _just_ typing Kosovo up and I see your response in preview. Yeah, the Serbs were still citing that 1389 battle as a rallying cry during their fight with NATO in 1999. That’s a long memory. edit: also, I have no doubt Serbia would argue that it counts as a country/nationality and not just an ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/12 "2012-08-03T17:09:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > More along the lines you’re looking for: > > What about Spain? > > The Republicans lost the Spanish Civil War to Franco’s forces, and Franco then ran the country for the next four decades. Yet now, it is Franco’s legacy that has been largely pushed aside (not forgotten, but not widely celebrated) in Spanish culture, which there are many Spaniards who celebrate and support the ideals of the Republican forces. That is useful information that I was unaware of. Thank you. \And Francisco Franco is still dead.\ ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/13 "2012-08-03T17:10:16Z")
The French still venerate Napleon, no? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/14 "2012-08-03T17:10:24Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Dammit, **Tamerlane** , I was _just_ typing Kosovo up and I see your response in preview. > > Yeah, the Serbs were still citing that 1389 battle as a rallying cry during their fight with NATO in 1999. That’s a long memory. > > edit: also, I have no doubt Serbia would argue that it counts as a country/nationality and not just an ethnic group. How long ago was it when Abraham’s sons were born? ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/15 "2012-08-03T17:15:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I mean, nobody in England declares that the Roundheads will rise again. The Roundheads _won_ their war(s). It was the peace they lost. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/16 "2012-08-03T17:24:29Z")
The Scots and Bonnie Prince Charlie. A lot of romantic sentiment surrounds the Cavalier side in the English Civil War(s), too. Cromwell’s Roundheads defeated the Royalists, executed Charles I and established the Commonwealth in 1649. The Restoration didn’t happen until 1660 and came about because Oliver Cromwell died, and his son Richard didn’t have the loyalty of the army the way his old man did, not because of military victories by the Royalists. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/17 "2012-08-03T17:27:05Z")
Good stuff, people. Keep it coming! > [@Diceman](#): > > This is the problem. The South/Confererate thing is basically an ethnic difference (Southerners vs. Northerners) so your distinction is arbitrary. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Granted ethnicity is in the eye of the beholder, but it seems like it would take a more than usually tortured definition to separate those two groups into different ethnicities. IMHO. This. The North and South have distinctive cultural traits, but our respective inhabitants share the same _culture_ and are ethnically indistinguishable. > [@WotNot](#): > > The Roundheads _won_ their war(s). It was the peace they lost. Oof. So they did. Not sure I was thinking there. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/18 "2012-08-03T17:27:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So, some people in the American South (and some in the North) like to fly the Confederate Battle Flag (or whatever it’s called), argue about the _casus belli_, and generally reminisce about their forebears who lost a war. > > _Excluding distinct ethnic/language groups_, does this happen elsewhere? I mean, nobody in England declares that the Roundheads will rise again. I’m fairly certain there isn’t a royalist movement in France, and so on. Guy Fawkes Day? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/19 "2012-08-03T17:30:01Z")
Not really the same thing. I mean, the gunpowder plot involved no more than a dozen people and didn’t even qualify as a battle. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318/20 "2012-08-03T17:32:17Z")
Egypt proudly [celebrates the Yom Kippur War as a great military victory](http://egyptholidaysdirectory.com/event/egypt-armed-forces-day.html), despite the fact it was a military failure (though it led to some political success). But militarily, it was a defeat. ( The war began with a very successful attack in which Egypt crossed into Israel and overran all their enemy’s defenses, but ended 2 weeks days later with a total retreat of all Egyptian soldiers back to behind where they had started, and Israeli soldiers sitting on Egyptian soil.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-countries-where-the-losing-side-in-a-war-is-still-celebrated/630318.md?page=2)