# Are there other technologies like Muslin that the British killed ?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 16, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232 "2018-12-16T17:48:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/21 "2018-12-19T09:21:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> The OP is based on a false premise - Muslin wasn’t _technologically_ superior, just superior workmanship.
Wow!! Cite please ?
Here are cites for my assertion (bolding mine) :
1\> “[Britain took more out of India than it put in – could China do the same to Britain? | Ian Jack | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/20/britain-took-more-out-of-india)”
\*For at least two centuries the handloom weavers of Bengal produced some of \*\* the world’s most desirable fabrics, especially the fine muslins, light as “woven air”, that were in such demand for dressmaking \*_and so cheap that Britain’s own cloth manufacturers conspired to cut off the fingers of Bengali weavers and break their looms. Their import was ended, however, by the imposition of duties and a flood of cheap fabric – cheaper even than poorly paid Bengali artisans could provide – from the new steam mills of northern England and lowland Scotland that conquered the Indian as well the British market._
2\> [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304802304\_‘The\_Merest\_Shadows\_of\_a\_Commodity’\_Indian\_Muslins\_for\_European\_Markets\_1750-1800](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304802304_'The_Merest_Shadows_of_a_Commodity'_Indian_Muslins_for_European_Markets_1750-1800)
_. In the 1760s the Dutch traveller Stavorinus wrote that ‘Bengal muslins were made so fine that a piece of twenty yards in length or even longer could be put into a common pocket “tobacco box” (i.e. snuff box)’._
3\> David Hume, ‘Of Commerce’ (1752), in David Hume, Essays Moral, Political, and Literary, Eugene F. Miller (ed.) (Indianapolis: Liberty Classics, 1985), p.264; Abbé Raynal, The Philosophical and Political History of the Settlements and Trade of the Europeans in the East and West Indies (1776), vol. II, p. 288.
- ‘If Saxony and other countries of Europe make up fine China”, if Valencia manufactures Pekins superior to those of China; if Switzerland imitates the muslins and worked calicoes of Bengal; if England and France print linens with great elegance; if so many stuffs, formerly unknown in our climates, now employ our best artists, are we not indebted to India for all these advantages?’ \*
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### Author:  [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/22 "2018-12-19T09:45:18Z")
> [@am77494](#):
>
> To continue, I was looking for such inhumane and barbaric destruction of industry and technology elsewhere in the world by the erstwhile British Empire.
The British destroyed the Chinese tea industry by smuggling plants out and then forcing India to farm it instead. Something detrimental to both Chinese and Indian peasants in one go.
The problem with the question is that much of the territory gobbled up by the empire didn’t have any existing industry or technology the British wanted. Just land, resources and people, all of which was drained of wealth as fast as the boats could sail.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/23 "2018-12-19T10:04:31Z")
> [@am77494](#):
>
> taken from [Viewpoint: Britain must pay reparations to India - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33618621)
I’d take that article with a huge pinch of salt. It’s clearly biased.
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### Author:  [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/24 "2018-12-19T10:34:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> I’d take that article with a huge pinch of salt. It’s clearly biased.
How about a better version ? Any cites ?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/25 "2018-12-19T12:35:08Z")
> [@am77494](#):
>
> Wow!! Cite please ?
You need a _cite_ for [**hand** weaving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslin_trade_in_Bengal) not being _technologically_ superior to [**machine** weaving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Invention_of_textile_machinery)?
Do you even know what “technologically superior” means?
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### Author:  [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/26 "2018-12-19T12:41:57Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> I’d take that article with a huge pinch of salt. It’s clearly biased.
Biased against the side which killed millions? Seems like a fair position to take.
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### Author:  [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/27 "2018-12-19T13:06:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Do you even know what “technologically superior” means?
No need for personal insults. I have held the position of a Research Scientist at a university, have chaired several sessions at Technology conferences and have several engineering patents under my belt. So with due humility and respect, the answer to your question is a resounding YES.
There are many chemical and physical processes that go into making the fiber that is used for weaving. The technology for producing, treating, making the fiber etc. were superior and hence the final product fetched the price and demand.
To further elucidate the above, please read through the recent publication list at Textile Technology, from the Journal of Cotton Science [here](http://www.cotton.org/journal/disciplines/textile-technology.cfm) .
You will see that the technology is not just about weaving but also about cotton production, extraction into fibers, chemical and physical treatments, etc.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/28 "2018-12-19T13:07:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> I’d take that article with a huge pinch of salt. It’s clearly biased.
Do you have a quibble with any specific figures? The thumb thing’s already been clarified/debunked, but other than that?
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/29 "2018-12-19T13:07:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> > [@am77494](#):
> >
> > taken from [Viewpoint: Britain must pay reparations to India - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33618621)
>
> I’d take that article with a huge pinch of salt. It’s clearly biased.
The headline says “viewpoint”. I think it’s understood that it’s an opinion piece.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/30 "2018-12-19T13:19:44Z")
> [@am77494](#):
>
> No need for personal insults.
OK, do you even know what “personal insult” means, then, because asking you if you know what “technologically superior” means is not it.
> [@](#):
>
> The technology for producing, treating, making the fiber etc. were superior
This is a) moving the goalposts; and
b) offered _sans_ citations. The cites you have posted only speak to quality, not technological superiority.
> [@](#):
>
> and hence the final product fetched the price and demand.
No one is denying the _quality_ of the final product. I’m questioning that it’s a result of _technological_ superiority.
> [@](#):
>
> You will see that the technology is not just about weaving but also about cotton production, extraction into fibers, chemical and physical treatments, etc.
I’m aware, having done spinning and weaving myself.
_Hand_ carding, spinning and weaving is not _technologically_ superior in any way to what happened in English mills. Any more than what [these guys](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMtSc2MJLcw) make is _technologically_ superior to what you get from Ikea.
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### Author:  [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/31 "2018-12-19T13:31:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> OK, do you even know what “personal insult” means …
I am sorry but I refuse to dignify this any further with a response.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/32 "2018-12-19T14:51:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> OK, do you even know what “personal insult” means, then, because asking you if you know what “technologically superior” means is not it…
**Moderator Note**
Let’s dial back the snark. No warning issued, but keep it civil.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
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### Author:  [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/33 "2018-12-19T19:09:14Z")
As others have mentioned, there was never any cutting off of thumbs by the empire. There is a single claim that weavers cut off their own thumbs to spite British tariff collectors, but that seems dubious. Indian manufactures were simply unable to compete with the lower prices that came from British industrialisation. Also at that time India was still controlled by the Mughal Empire, with only a minority being administered by the East India Company.
Tea was introduced into British India to compete with the Chinese market, but that doesn’t imply harm to both sets of peasants but only the workings of the market. Claims to the contrary are the nineteenth century Indian version of Donald Trump economics.
Indentures were voluntary. They partially replaced the slave trade as a source of labour, and helped reduce the wage demands of emancipated former slaves. Other than a few criminals those Indians moved abroad as indentures were volunteers going for the work. It’s a free policy of immigration, nothing more.
Most of the British empire didn’t really have native industries to be eliminated. No-one’s complaining about the aboriginal Australian flint-knapping industry who have been completely driven from their traditional work manufacturing paleolithic hunting implements.
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### Author:  [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/34 "2018-12-20T02:41:46Z")
> [@blindboyard](#):
>
> As others have mentioned, there was never any cutting off of thumbs by the empire. There is a single claim that weavers cut off their own thumbs to spite British tariff collectors, but that seems dubious. Indian manufactures were simply unable to compete with the lower prices that came from British industrialisation. Also at that time India was still controlled by the Mughal Empire, with only a minority being administered by the East India Company.
>
> Tea was introduced into British India to compete with the Chinese market, but that doesn’t imply harm to both sets of peasants but only the workings of the market. Claims to the contrary are the nineteenth century Indian version of Donald Trump economics.
>
> Indentures were voluntary. They partially replaced the slave trade as a source of labour, and helped reduce the wage demands of emancipated former slaves. Other than a few criminals those Indians moved abroad as indentures were volunteers going for the work. It’s a free policy of immigration, nothing more.
>
> Most of the British empire didn’t really have native industries to be eliminated. No-one’s complaining about the aboriginal Australian flint-knapping industry who have been completely driven from their traditional work manufacturing paleolithic hunting implements.
Very appropriate poster name/post!
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-other-technologies-like-muslin-that-the-british-killed/826232/35 "2018-12-20T02:44:53Z")
> [@am77494](#):
>
> No need for personal insults. I have held the position of a Research Scientist at a university, have chaired several sessions at Technology conferences and have several engineering patents under my belt. So with due humility and respect, the answer to your question is a resounding YES.
I don’t mean this to be an attack but given your background I’m puzzled that you’re using a seriously biased opinion piece as a basis for discussion.
It’s a false premise to say that the British killed hand loomed muslin. It’s like saying Ford killed Rolls Royce with the Model T. Muslin was a labor intensive product that commanded a premium price. It isn’t in the same product mix as factory produced fabrics.
It’s a given that technological advances drive down the cost of products and this would displace labor intensive methods. But labor is labor. It doesn’t matter if it’s hand hammering a kettle or operating a machine that stamps them out at a faster rate.
I suggest you re-group your premise and use a better cite as a launching point.
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