# Are there people who really believe in Kwanzaa? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 25, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387 "2009-02-25T17:33:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/21 "2009-02-25T23:53:42Z")
I don’t really \*believe \*in Christmas, but I celebrate it. What does “belief” have to do with it? All holidays were made up by someone. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/22 "2009-02-26T00:32:03Z")
Do you believe in Festivus?:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/23 "2009-02-26T00:41:29Z")
Pretty much the entire human “world” is created out of whole cloth. When Buddhists (and others) talk about the world being an illusion, they aren’t necessarily talking about the physical world being a literal illusion (although the [Holographic Universe Theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle) puts that to the test), but rather they’re pointing out that all our habits, institutions and social constructs are just that - constructs - and as such, they are an illusion. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/24 "2009-02-26T00:43:37Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Chanukah is the Jewish Kwanzaa. > > Yes, I know it existed as a religious holiday, but it was an exceedingly minor one, and that celebration died out a century ago. Jewish families took the name and the lighting of the Menorah and made up a celebration so that their kids wouldn’t feel left out at Christmastime. It doesn’t even really have a religious origin in the first place (it was more a celebration of a victory). So it is your contention that the religious obligations specified in the Talmud relating to Hanukkah ceased to be observed a century ago, and were only recently revived? During this period when Hanukkah died out, was the _Al Hanisyim_ paragraph deleted from the Amidah? Was Hallel no longer recited during the eight days of the former Hanukkah? I’m gonna need a cite for this. I mean, I can buy that not wanting kids to feel left out has contributed to Hanukkah being celebrated more elaborately in modern America than it has been in most other times and places in Jewish history, but “died out a century ago?” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/25 "2009-02-26T05:42:39Z")
I don’t “believe in” Thanksgiving but I enjoy getting together with my family on that day. If my family wanted to celebrate Kwanzaa together, I’d do it. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/26 "2009-02-26T06:01:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Mostly, it is seemingly now just perpetrated by the media and government, in order to look PC. > > I have no doubt there are a few sincere celebrants, but the number seems to be insignificant. “Wintereenmas” from Ctrl-Alt-Delete is likely as celebrated. > > In fact, from what I have seen the various Pagan holidays of Beltane and Samhain etc are more popularly followed. I am (to paraphrase others in this thread) about as white as they come- but I am one of two in the departments where I work who isn’t brown or light brown (and one of three males)- and I haven’t heard anyone mention Kwanzaa in seven years. In fact, I think the only place I have heard the word is from Kwanzaa-bot on Futurama, and at my child’s predominantly african american school, where even they gave it short shrift. I will take my punishment for that run-on in small doses, please. Oh, and I only spelled Kwanzaa right because Chrome made me. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/27 "2009-02-26T06:19:02Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I confess that my only exposure to Kwaanza is from American media - no African that I have met celebrated it, indeed, they had never heard of it. > > I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and it seems a bit of a joke. > It’s like a group of black activists looked at Christmas, said “that’s too white”, and made up a holiday. It’s not “like” that… it IS that. > [@wikipedia](#): > > Ron Karenga created Kwanzaa in 1966 as the first specifically African-American holiday. Karenga said his goal was to “…give Blacks an alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society.” > [@](#): > > During the early years of Kwanzaa, Karenga said that it was meant to be an alternative to Christmas, that “Jesus was psychotic”, and that Christianity was a white religion that blacks should shun. > [@](#): > > The origins of Kwanzaa are not secret and are openly acknowledged by those promoting the holiday. Karenga did tone the rhetoric down some in later years. Watching the numbers at the box office drop will do that. > [@](#): > > However, as Kwanzaa gained mainstream adherents, Karenga altered his position so as not to alienate practicing Christians, then stating in the 1997 _Kwanzaa: A Celebration of Family, Community, and Culture_, “Kwanzaa was not created to give people an alternative to their own religion or religious holiday.” [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/28 "2009-02-26T08:49:21Z")
I think a useful rule of thumb for “real”-ness might be the ratio of government proclamations/corporate acknowledgements/media mentions of a given holiday on the one hand, vs. the number of people actually changing their behavior in any way in its observance on the other. From that standpoint I’d guess that–regardless of their respective origins–Columbus Day or President’s Day is far more “real” than Kwanzaa, in that for the former holidays at least you see government and bank employees getting days off, whereas I doubt one person in 100,000 alters his or her behavior on Kwanzaa day in any way whatsoever. So Kwanzaa is artificial in the sense that gov’t/corporates/media are paying touchy feely lip service to a concept that nobody gives a crap about in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/29 "2009-02-26T16:25:28Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and it seems a bit of a joke. > It’s like a group of black activists looked at Christmas, said “that’s too white”, and made up a holiday. > > . Moreover, the guy who invented it was an FBI stooge in a campaign to discredit black radicals. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/30 "2009-02-26T17:02:04Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > So it is your contention that the religious obligations specified in the Talmud relating to Hanukkah ceased to be observed a century ago, and were only recently revived? During this period when Hanukkah died out, was the _Al Hanisyim_ paragraph deleted from the Amidah? Was Hallel no longer recited during the eight days of the former Hanukkah? Only the most orthodox Jewish families in the US observed it. According to [American Heritage](http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/2000/8/2000_8_84.shtml): > [@American Heritage](#): > > After the Civil War, some Jewish newspapers reported a modest revival of interest in Chanukah. In general, though, as Jenna Weissman Joselit points out in The Wonders of America (1994), it remained a minor celebration for hard-core religious Jews and nothing at all for the rest. “The customary candles disappear more and more from Jewish homes,” a rabbi wrote in 1884. Four years earlier, a Jewish newspaper had pleaded with its readers to “try the effect of the Hanukkah lights. If just for the experiment, try it.” So I was off on the dates, but not the principle: that the holiday was fading out in the US and revived in the 20th century (and especially after WWII). ---
**Author:** ![SharkB8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@SharkB8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SharkB8)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/31 "2009-02-26T17:07:17Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > \ Now, granted, I’m as white as they come, but **SharkB8’s** post was the first I’ve heard of people taking it seriously. > \Nobody’s gonna be disappointed if I don’t throw a Kwanzaa party, or send them a Kwanzaa card. Adding to this, I still can’t figure out why the people who send me Kwanzaa cards send them to me, other than the fact that they are happy to have “their own” holiday and assume that - because I, too, am black - I am also happy to _finally_ have a holiday of my own and certainly must celebrate it. Now that you mention this, they may be a little disappointed that I don’t give them a Kwanzaa card back. I send Christmas cards, Easter cards on occasion and I even send St. Paddy’s Day cards (My boyfriend is Irish and what can I say, I enjoy embracing him, um, his culture)…I hope my Kwanzaa buddies are not offended by this. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/32 "2009-02-26T18:36:26Z")
**RealityChuck** , the article linked is interesting and AFAICT accurate. However, the implications I perceived in your original post which I objected to was that (a) there was a time when Hanukkah was not celebrated even by “hard-core religious Jews” and/or that (b)there was a large group of American Jews who stopped celebrating Hanukkah specifically, as opposed to becoming less traditionally observant in general. I don’t think the linked article demonstrates either of those things, nor am I really sure that you meant to imply either of those things. Certainly the current situation, where we have many semi-assimilated Jews who celebrate Hanukkah but don’t observe other, more religiously significant holidays or other fundamental religious obligations such as keeping kosher, is probably without precedent in Jewish history. But the basic centerpiece of the celebration, the lighting of the menorah (_chanukiah_, for the pedantic) has remained unchanged for about 2000 years, so I think the article overreaches when it compares this gradual revival of interest in an ancient tradition that never died out entirely to something like Kwanzaa, which was made up out of whole cloth by identifiable individuals at a specific time and place within living memory. I already PMed you, but I would like to again apologize for the grumpy tone of my earlier post. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/33 "2009-02-26T18:56:17Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > I think some of you are misinterpreting the ‘made out of whole cloth’ comment. Sure, most religious holidays are entirely arbitrary, but there’s an enormous difference between a holiday that’s developed over the years, and one that’s created consciously. Actually, I think the comparison to Esperanto is especially relevant - they’re both artificial constructs that could potentially be regarded as important and real, but I don’t really know anyone who does. > > Any cultural tradition’s value is entirely based on how many people care about it. Christmas is only vaguely Christian anymore, but the fact that so many of us grew up with it, and think it’s important mean it _is_ important. Kwanzaa, as far as I can tell, doesn’t have that going for it. Now, granted, I’m as white as they come, but **SharkB8’s** post was the first I’ve heard of people taking it seriously. In my world, it’s more on par with Talk Like a Pirate Day than Ramadan. It could be interesting, I guess, or fun (although it really doesn’t have enough pirates), but there’s no emotional aspect, it’s purely intellectual. Nobody’s gonna be disappointed if I don’t throw a Kwanzaa party, or send them a Kwanzaa card. It’s just too soon to tell. We can create some rubrics (How many people claim to celebrate it? Does the holiday get more or less shelf space in the card aisle than condolence cards for pets? Do government offices close in observance? Has my great aunt heard of it? Is it in my spellchecker?) but that only really tells us, if anything, how the holiday is thought of today. Doesn’t tell us if people in 100 years will have heard of it, or if the post office might close for Kwanzaa in 2309 or if, indeed, your great-great-great-grandchildren will be upset when their friends don’t send them a Kwanzaa e-card. Right now, Kwanzaa is a “made up” holiday in that it’s less widely known, celebrated and regarded than other holidays. That may change, or it may not. Once upon a time, Christmas was a new “made up” holiday that the Romans tried to convince the Britons to celebrate instead of Midwinter Grub and Rub Night. They probably thought Christ’s Mass was just as arbitrary and artificial as Kwanzaa feels to us right now. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/34 "2009-02-26T20:02:42Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and it seems a bit of a joke. **Laudenum** , your Wiki friends are wrong. They have been affected by the cynicism of a cynical age. They do not believe except what they can provide a detailed citation for. They think nothing can be which is not explainable by their little internet encyclopedia. All bases of human knowledge, whether they be Wikis or message boards or reference books, are little. In this great universe of ours Wikipedia is a mere particle, a quark, in its references, as compared with the boundless universe about it, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth of knowledge. Yes, **Laudenum** , there is a Kwanzaa. It exists as certainly as death and taxes exist, and you know that they abound to give your life misery and pain. Alas! How dreary would be the world if there were no Kwanzaa. It would be as dreary as if there were no **Laudenums**. There would be no SDMB-like skepticism then, no threads, no pittings to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in the schadenfraude at the hardships of others. The eternal light with which the SDMB fills the world would be extinguished. Not believe in Kwanzaa! You might as well not believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster! You might get your friends to watch in all the black households in America to catch a glimpse of a Kwanzaa celebration, but even if they did not see any celebration going on, what would that prove? Nobody sees Kwanzaa, but that is no sign that there is no Kwanzaa. The most real things in the world are those that neither scientists nor anthropologists can see. Did you ever see the Flying Spaghetti Monster catapulting through the air? Of course not, but that’s no proof that it is not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in this world. You may tear apart the iPod and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world, which not Steve Jobs, nor even the united strength of Apple and Microsoft, could tear apart. Only feelings, dance, spiritual energy, tarot-card reading, the king of Nigeria, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, **Laudenum** , in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding. No Kwanzaa! Thank God! It lives, and it lives forever. A thousand years from now, **Laudenum** , nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, it will continue to make glad the heart of the African-American community. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/35 "2009-02-26T20:22:25Z")
Francis Pharcellus Church called, he wants his meme back. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/36 "2009-02-26T21:39:54Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > **RealityChuck** , the article linked is interesting and AFAICT accurate. However, the implications I perceived in your original post which I objected to was that (a) there was a time when Hanukkah was not celebrated even by “hard-core religious Jews” and/or that (b)there was a large group of American Jews who stopped celebrating Hanukkah specifically, as opposed to becoming less traditionally observant in general. I don’t think the linked article demonstrates either of those things, nor am I really sure that you meant to imply either of those things. I didn’t mean to imply that – obviously, even the article says that Chanukah was being celebrated. But Jews in the 19th century were moving away from that celebration, and it was a very minor holiday in the Jewish calendar. Before WWII, all Jews would celebrate Rosh Hoshona, Yom Kippur, and Passover, but the other holidays were not important. As a kid in the 50s and 60s, we only really celebrated those and Chanukah; we were aware of Sukkoth and went to shul on Purim but found that was hardly the kid’s holiday they made it out to be. I was aware of other holidays in Sunday School, but all I did was read about them. If there hadn’t been a social need to have something around the Christmas season, Chanukah would today be about as well known as Lag BaOmer. > [@](#): > > But the basic centerpiece of the celebration, the lighting of the menorah (_chanukiah_, for the pedantic) has remained unchanged for about 2000 years, so I think the article overreaches when it compares this gradual revival of interest in an ancient tradition that never died out entirely to something like Kwanzaa, which was made up out of whole cloth by identifiable individuals at a specific time and place within living memory. The candle lighting and the eight days were indeed from an old tradition, but the rest of Chanukah – presents, family gatherings, etc. – is definitely 20th Century (I don’t know about you, but as a kid, the lights were OK, but it was the presents that made us look forward to the holiday – and marked it as a parallel to Christmas, which is the force behind its revival). Kwanzaa is also linked to ancient roots. As I mentioned in my PM, don’t worry about the tone. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387/37 "2009-02-26T22:51:14Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Festivus. It’s gaining in popularity among atheists and others who are less interested in the traditional religious holidays around that time. Nobody takes Festivus seriously, which is what the OP’s asking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-people-who-really-believe-in-kwanzaa/487387.md?page=1)