# Are there portions of Christianity who don't believe in the Resurrection? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514 "2018-03-31T04:06:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/41 "2018-04-01T03:53:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s missing my point. It’s not an issue of whether you have faith or not. The issue is that faith is supposed to be enough. > > But if that’s the case, then why did Jesus perform miracles and rise from the dead? Shouldn’t people have believe his message on faith alone without needing to see any manifestation of divine power? And that’s close to why I feel comfortable calling myself a Christian while having no opinion whatsoever as to the historical validity of the miracles or the virgin birth, or the resurrection. The point is that the way in which he asked us to live feels right to me, and sits beautifully upon my conscience. I don’t need miracles to see that his teachings are valid. And so I can pattern my life after his teachings very comfortably whether or not he turned water into wine. Jesus never asked us to worship him. In fact, he said quite clearly what he wanted (see above) and never made any reference to venerating him by any action other than remembering him and helping others and loving him and everyone else. He also modeled great moral courage in standing for the lowly and the reviled. Many people in America today call themselves “Christian” while patterning their lives after the book of Leviticus, or Paul’s post-ascension editorializing. All of which is fine until they start following those writings even to the extent of direct abnegation of the direct requests Jesus Christ made. Which is again fine, believe what you like, and pattern your life as you wish, but don’t call it “Christian” when it clearly isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/42 "2018-04-01T03:55:08Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Is faith enough to make you believe in a philosophy? > > Is faith enough to make you believe a lie? > > Is faith enough to make you believe in a philosophy that uses a complex creatively-written dramatic story to make its point? > > Is faith enough to make you believe in a philosophy that promotes a highly-biased and extensively-doctored history book as the only potential source of true statements? > > The miracles are BS in the factual sense, every last one of them, but it’s creative writing, not history. You don’t finish a novel and then say “Come on, those things never happened” - because of course they didn’t happen, and when you started reading you knew factual history was not the point of the book. > > Faith is enough, for what real religion requires. For a fake religion based on misinterpreting a serious set of true metaphors as a laughable set of fake facts, no amount of faith can ever be enough. You’re still arguing points that I’m not making. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/43 "2018-04-01T04:04:34Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > And that’s close to why I feel comfortable calling myself a Christian while having no opinion whatsoever as to the historical validity of the miracles or the virgin birth, or the resurrection. > > The point is that the way in which he asked us to live feels right to me, and sits beautifully upon my conscience. I don’t need miracles to see that his teachings are valid. And so I can pattern my life after his teachings very comfortably whether or not he turned water into wine. > > Jesus never asked us to worship him. In fact, he said quite clearly what he wanted (see above) and never made any reference to venerating him by any action other than remembering him and helping others and loving him and everyone else. He also modeled great moral courage in standing for the lowly and the reviled. > > Many people in America today call themselves “Christian” while patterning their lives after the book of Leviticus, or Paul’s post-ascension editorializing. All of which is fine until they start following those writings even to the extent of direct abnegation of the direct requests Jesus Christ made. Which is again fine, believe what you like, and pattern your life as you wish, but don’t call it “Christian” when it clearly isn’t. You seem to regard Jesus as an ethical leader rather than a religious one. Which, as you say, is fine. But I think that Jesus did intend a religious message as well as an ethical philosophy. Jesus did not feel that living a good ethical life alone was sufficient for salvation. You also had to have a belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![pdhenry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pdhenry/32/5561_2.png) [@pdhenry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdhenry)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/44 "2018-04-01T04:26:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You seem to regard Jesus as an ethical leader rather than a religious one. Which, as you say, is fine. But I think that Jesus did intend a religious message as well as an ethical philosophy. Jesus did not feel that living a good ethical life alone was sufficient for salvation. You also had to have a belief in God. Even [the Pope](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-don-t-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html) will disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/45 "2018-04-01T05:55:26Z")
Since this is moving past the question in the OP let’s move it to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/46 "2018-04-01T13:17:14Z")
Happy Easter, everyone! The Lord is risen indeed! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/47 "2018-04-01T13:54:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Happy Easter, everyone! The Lord is risen indeed! 🙂 Did he see his shadow? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/48 "2018-04-01T13:55:46Z")
May Allah and his son’s blessing be upon on all you infidels on this glorious day of resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/49 "2018-04-01T14:12:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did he see his shadow? Sorry, six more weeks of winter. Oh wait, you’re in Portland. You get six more weeks of rain. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/50 "2018-04-01T14:54:24Z")
In answer to the OP question, there is clearly an abundance of _people_ who consider themselves Christian who don’t believe Jesus bodily resurrected. But AFAIK there’s no reasonably well-known _denomination_ that takes that position. I’d be hard pressed to come up with one that’s even neutral on the question. (Aside from the Unitarians, who as a denomination aren’t really into Jesus-worship anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/51 "2018-04-01T15:45:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But AFAIK there’s no reasonably well-known _denomination_ that takes that position. I’d be hard pressed to come up with one that’s even neutral on the question. (Aside from the Unitarians, who as a denomination aren’t really into Jesus-worship anyway.) I and most other Unitarians I know consider Jesus worth paying some attention to. That is the etymology of the word ‘worship’, after all. It is also worth noting today that in the “Joker’s Wild” universe that George R. R. Martin invented, there’s the church of Jesus Christ, Joker. Lovingly overseen by Father Squid. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/52 "2018-04-01T16:08:00Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If they believed not in those things, then why the heck go to church? The wine isn’t that good. ME: Hey, that’s Port\*, and not a bad one. ALTAR GUILD LADY: There’s no need to suffer just because you’re in church. - - A fortified wine with higher alcohol content. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/53 "2018-04-01T16:59:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > In answer to the OP question, there is clearly an abundance of _people_ who consider themselves Christian who don’t believe Jesus bodily resurrected. > > But AFAIK there’s no reasonably well-known _denomination_ that takes that position. I’d be hard pressed to come up with one that’s even neutral on the question. (Aside from the Unitarians, who as a denomination aren’t really into Jesus-worship anyway.) I don’t know that any denominations have come out and said it, but I would guess that the majority of clergy in some denominations don’t believe in a bodily resurrection (I’m thinking United Church of Christ and Episcopalian, for instance). My take on it as a Unitarian Universalist identifying as Christian is there was something miraculous that helped a band of followers keep going after their teacher/leader was executed. By miraculous, I mean in the original sense of “something to be marveled at.”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/54 "2018-04-01T21:35:57Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I and most other Unitarians I know consider Jesus worth paying some attention to. That is the etymology of the word ‘worship’, after all. I consider a lot of people worth paying some attention to. Jesus was [pretty clear](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4%3A10&version=NIV) that you can’t worship a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/55 "2018-04-01T21:38:31Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > My take on it as a Unitarian Universalist identifying as Christian is there was something miraculous that helped a band of followers keep going after their teacher/leader was executed. By miraculous, I mean in the original sense of “something to be marveled at.”. Well, there was that Pentecost thing. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/56 "2018-04-01T22:00:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I consider a lot of people worth paying some attention to. > > Jesus was [pretty clear](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4%3A10&version=NIV) that you can’t worship a lot of people. But the word actually used in that verse, in the original Greek of the time is “proskyneseis”. A number of later translators converted that word into the english “worship”. But it really doesn’t translate nicely into the english word “worship”, does it? “Worship” comes from Old English _weorthscipe_ or ‘worthiness, acknowledgment of worth’. Whereas “proskyneseis” is greek and translates as: PROSKUNEO. . . pros: towards, and kuneo: to kiss. Other translators have used the terms “homage” and “bowed down” and “did obeisance” or even “adored”. I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t mean you couldn’t acknowledge other people . . . ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/57 "2018-04-01T23:42:49Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > But the word actually used in that verse, in the original Greek of the time is “proskyneseis”. A number of later translators converted that word into the english “worship”. > > But it really doesn’t translate nicely into the english word “worship”, does it? “Worship” comes from Old English _weorthscipe_ or ‘worthiness, acknowledgment of worth’. Whereas “proskyneseis” is greek and translates as: PROSKUNEO. . . pros: towards, and kuneo: to kiss. > > Other translators have used the terms “homage” and “bowed down” and “did obeisance” or even “adored”. > > I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t mean you couldn’t acknowledge other people . . . Words have been known to move from their roots over time. And ‘worship’ in contemporary English means ‘the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity,’ regardless of what its root word meant. As far as the Greek is concerned, I don’t know shit. But I do know that Biblical translations are, by and large, scholarly documents where they’re trying to find the best contemporary equivalents to the original Hebrew and Greek words to the extent that we are capable of understanding their meaning when they were written. ‘Worship’ is routinely used in translating the linked verse. I’m going to assume that the scholars knew WTF they were doing when they used that word when they did their translations. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/58 "2018-04-02T11:58:12Z")
There are people–myself among them–who believe that a “Christian” is someone who follows the teachings of Christ to the best of his ability and understanding. There is no requirement to worship him as God, and doing so may actually be a disservice to his message and accomplishments. Equating him with God absolves you of any responsibility to follow his example, for instance. And since the Bible is in a perpetual state of rewrite, it becomes apparent that Christ was misquoted sometimes, and picking and choosing the message becomes an inevitability. Anyway, the answer to the OP is “yes.” ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/59 "2018-04-02T16:29:30Z")
> **[Christian atheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism)** > > Christian atheism is a form of Christianity that rejects the theistic claims of Christianity, but draws its beliefs and practices from Jesus' life and teachings as recorded in the New Testament Gospels and other sources. > Christian atheism takes many forms: > Thomas Ogletree, Frederick Marquand Professor of Ethics and Religious Studies at Yale Divinity School, lists these four common beliefs: > > According to Paul van Buren, a Death of God theologian, the word God itself is "either meaningless or mi... ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514/60 "2018-04-02T17:50:33Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > _Interviewer: What about raising Lazarus from the dead? > Jesus: First of all, he wasn’t dead. He was hung over. I told people that. > Interviewer: But in the Bible, you said he was dead. > Jesus: Uh-uh. I said he looked dead. I said, “Hey! He looks dead!” You see, Lazarus was a very heavy sleeper. Plus, the day before, we had been to a wedding feast and he had put away a lotta wine._ > > Stranger But then there’s John 11:39 \*“Lord, he has been dead these 3 days… he stinketh!” Jesus: “You would too after partying that hard. Nothing a good shower won’t cure.” \* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-portions-of-christianity-who-dont-believe-in-the-resurrection/811514.md?page=4)