# Are there "posh" or cultured, upper class accents in every major language or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 26, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635 "2013-07-26T22:23:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/21 "2013-07-29T11:41:02Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Are there accents usually associated with a cultured, socially superior demographic in every major language or is it restricted to English? Are there posh, Italian, German, Chinese, Russian or Indian etc. accents? In India, Hindi spoken in Eastern Uttar Pradesh is the purest Hindi. They speak it with proper pace, that is not fast. Their language also has respect. I, like many people like it the best. The Hindi spoken in Delhi (also elsewhere maybe mumbai) mixed with English words is probably considered Posh. In Delhi however, we speak it fast and also the language doesn’t have as much respect as Hindi in Eastern UP. Punjabi is good for songs n stuff but it can’t be an official language. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/22 "2013-07-29T14:20:20Z")
Very much so for Japanese where many of the upper class, especially the women, speak a much more formal Japanese. Pre-WWII and post war Tokyo itself was divided between the upper and the working / merchant classes. The eastern part of the city is where the merchant and working class Edokko live. The western part of Tokyo speak a more formal "politer " Japanese. My ex-wife’s mother was from Edo-kko and her father was from Den’en area. It was very interesting meeting the different sides. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/23 "2013-07-29T14:48:19Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > In German, there isn’t. We do have regional dialects, some of which might be considered more low-brow than others, but we don’t have an Oxford-style rich people accent. Newscasters and the like will usually speak “Hochdeutsch” (high German), a dialect-free, universally understood version. To expand: there is no particular German accent that says posh/educated, but there is IMO a distinction that shows wrt different contexts: Educated/cultured people’s talk partakes more of _Hochdeutsch_ in their formal/public registers, and uses more dialectal forms in the infomal/intimate registers. Less well educated people vary their speech less between registers. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/24 "2013-07-29T18:24:06Z")
Maybe I am just tone deaf. I worked for three years for a Philadelphia Main Line patrician (for example, he had an Olympic Gold medal–I saw it once–for yacht racing) and never noticed he talked different from me. My father had a South Philly accent, but my mother and I grew up in lower middle class neighborhoods in West Philly. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/25 "2013-08-04T06:01:49Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > In German, there isn’t. We do have regional dialects, some of which might be considered more low-brow than others, but we don’t have an Oxford-style rich people accent. Newscasters and the like will usually speak “Hochdeutsch” (high German), a dialect-free, universally understood version. As a non-native speaker, though, even I occasionally notice that one or two of the announcers on Deutschlandfunk have a slightly different “twang”, as it were, to some of the vowels, for instance where the /a/ in “ja” comes out like a cross between /a/ and /o/. Of course I understand that’s not necessarily a high/low thing, in terms of social status. Usually, too, I find it difficult to understand anyone in Austrian or Swiss radio, although they’re presumably speaking Hochdeutsch as well. I rarely try to do it because I can’t get much out of it. Again, though, I guess it isn’t a question of class. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/26 "2013-08-04T06:21:47Z")
In Korean, regional dialects are usually considered to be uncultured/uneducated. The Seoul accent in and of itself isn’t necessarily posh, though. I would say it’s a combination of accent + grammar that makes someone sound upper class. Plenty of people speak in a Seoul accent but use very informal grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/27 "2013-08-04T06:42:36Z")
There are definitely people on Long Island with the Thurston Howell III “Lockjaw” accent. My ex, who’s Persian, tells me that Afghanis like to say they speak the purest and best Persian, ie Dari. Iranians will give an offended sniff at the thought. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/28 "2013-08-04T06:43:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A “posh” Punjabi speaker will not employ Punjabi (or Pahari, Potohari, Seriaki etc) in streotypically posh setting. Then what do they use? > [@](#): > > Very much so for Japanese where many of the upper class, especially the women, speak a much more formal Japanese. > > Pre-WWII and post war Tokyo itself was divided between the upper and the working / merchant classes. The eastern part of the city is where the merchant and working class Edokko live. The western part of Tokyo speak a more formal "politer " Japanese. I remember reading that when Hirohito addressed his subjects at the end of WW2, many Japanese could not understand what he was saying since his vocabulary was so different than everyday speech. Is this what you’re talking about, or is that a different issue? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/29 "2013-08-04T08:08:11Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Isn’t it usually stated that there are no accents in Russian? That could be an interesting one… Russian has a lot of regional and class-based accents. People still make fun of Gorbachev because he sounds like a Southern bumpkin. You can spot a hooker in Moscow the moment she opens her mouth, no matter how well-dressed she is. Listen to the conscript soldiers you see everywhere, and it’s usually obvious that they’re the kids whose grades weren’t good enough to keep them out of the army. Really posh Russian speech left the country when the nobility emigrated (or were liquidated or dispossessed) after 1917, but St Petersburgers still sound like snobs to Muscovites. I’m not a native speaker, but I could tell instantly that they speak differently in St Pete when I first visited there as a grad student. Probably the “best” Russian you’ll hear nowadays comes from the professional newscasters on state television. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/30 "2013-08-04T08:45:35Z")
A few languages exist in a condition called diglossia, which is the divide between posh and non-posh taken to an extreme. In effect there are two languages in one. Arabic and Tamil are good examples of this. The classical/literary register of each is used for the most formal type of speaking, but the colloquial register that people use for everyday talking is almost a different language, with different grammar, vocabulary, and even pronunciation. Modern Greek used to have diglossia, but not any more, since the 1980s when they got rid of the posh version of Greek, which was anyway an artificial 19th-century concoction. Javanese has the most extreme diglossia in the world, where the prestige register and the low register use completely different words for just about everything, and this is the result of social class stratification. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/31 "2013-08-04T08:57:45Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > I remember reading that when Hirohito addressed his subjects at the end of WW2, many Japanese could not understand what he was saying since his vocabulary was so different than everyday speech. Is this what you’re talking about, or is that a different issue? IIRC, Hirohito used an archaic dialect that predated even the upper/working/merchant class division. I’d assume it was something that only the nobility spoke. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/32 "2013-08-04T09:44:07Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Then what do they use? English or Urdu. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/33 "2013-08-04T09:47:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > A few languages exist in a condition called diglossia, which is the divide between posh and non-posh taken to an extreme. In effect there are two languages in one. Arabic and Tamil are good examples of this. The classical/literary register of each is used for the most formal type of speaking, but the colloquial register that people use for everyday talking is almost a different language, with different grammar, vocabulary, and even pronunciation. Modern Greek used to have diglossia, but not any more, since the 1980s when they got rid of the posh version of Greek, which was anyway an artificial 19th-century concoction. Javanese has the most extreme diglossia in the world, where the prestige register and the low register use completely different words for just about everything, and this is the result of social class stratification. Farsi was also a good example until the 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/34 "2013-08-04T10:02:25Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Javanese has the most extreme diglossia in the world, where the prestige register and the low register use completely different words for just about everything, and this is the result of social class stratification. English grew out of a similar dichotomy, in which the ruling class after 1066 (the Normans) spoke French (a Latinate language) and their subjects (everyone else) spoke Anglo-Saxon or some form of Scandinavian (Germanic languages). This is why (for example) upper-class people today perspire and recline on chaises, while the lower classes sweat and lay on sofas. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/35 "2013-08-04T13:26:38Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I thought that was the Philadelphia Mainline Clenched Jaw accent, made famous by Katherine Hepburn in “The Philadelphia Story”. I’m from the east coast of the US and would consider the “Hahvahd” or Boston Brahmin accent to be the most prestigious. Accents that are often seen (heard?) as decidedly low-class would include the Brooklyn accent and AAVE. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/36 "2013-08-04T13:37:57Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > (Isn’t it usually stated that there are no accents in Russian? That could be an interesting one…) > > In the case of - Castillian - Spanish there are definitely ‘posh’ accents. But they are not, at least in my opinion, particularly cultured. They tend to be used, at least stereotypically, by people who have a lot of money but little in the form of culture. Is this the lithping accent? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/37 "2013-08-04T15:15:13Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Then what do they use? > > I remember reading that when Hirohito addressed his subjects at the end of WW2, many Japanese could not understand what he was saying since his vocabulary was so different than everyday speech. Is this what you’re talking about, or is that a different issue? The second quote is from me. No, imperial court Japanese was completely different. The Japanese language in built around various levels of politeness / formality and the use depends on the relationship between the the speaker and listener. Rather than create an example myself, I’ll just copy wiki > [@](#): > > For example, the standard form of the verb “to do” is suru (する). This form is appropriate with family members and close friends. The polite form of suru, the addressee honorific, is shimasu. This form is appropriate in most daily interactions. When showing respect, such as when talking about a customer or a superior, however, the respectful word nasaru and its polite form nasaimasu are used, and when referring to one’s own actions or the actions of a group member, the humble word itasu and its polite form itashimasu are used. These respectful and humble words are referent honorifics, and thus can coexist with addressee honorific -masu. People from “better” families tend to use the more formal words with closer relationships. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/38 "2013-08-04T15:35:26Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I think that in a lot of languages, the upper class accent/way of talking tends to become the standard newscaster accent/way of talking which then reinforces its status as upper class. Certainly the case for Froggish. > > Am I correct that it’s also the case for British English where public school types made RP the chief BBC accent which then reinforced its association with upper class-ness? Not really in the U.S. The other posters are right that Boston Brahman/Philadelphia Mainline accent is America’s posh accent. Most American broacasters tend to use somewhat formalized versions of Midwestern accents. [Here’s an iconic example.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9QEUfkRkZ0) ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/39 "2013-08-04T15:38:15Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > English grew out of a similar dichotomy, in which the ruling class after 1066 (the Normans) spoke French (a Latinate language) and their subjects (everyone else) spoke Anglo-Saxon or some form of Scandinavian (Germanic languages). This is why (for example) upper-class people today perspire and recline on chaises, while the lower classes sweat and lay on sofas. Sofa is an arabic word that came into English via French or Italian. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635/40 "2013-08-04T15:41:55Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Is this the lithping accent? No, **Batistuta** was talking about the equivalent of Valley Girl. It doesn’t necessarily include what you refer to as “lithping” (is there any reason those of you who expect everybody to use seseo suddenly forget how to spell “lisping”?), as it exists in varieties with ceceo\*, seseo and z/s differentiation, but it has specific tones and vocabulary. Lots of _o sea_, calling everybody “baby”… - Ceceo: Zaragoza is pronounced Zaragoza, Sevilla is pronounced Zebiya. Seseo: Saragosa, Sebiya. Differentiation: Zaragoza, Sebiya. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-posh-or-cultured-upper-class-accents-in-every-major-language-or-not/664635.md?page=3)