# Are there really males and females? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 5, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615 "2005-11-05T05:39:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Barnes\_N.Noble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@Barnes\_N.Noble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barnes_N.Noble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/1 "2005-11-05T05:39:46Z")
Is the idea of seperate sexes just a social construct like race? Don’t the intersexed show us that there are not males and females but a continum of sex without dividing lines? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/2 "2005-11-05T05:43:22Z")
> [@Barnes N. Noble](#): > > Is the idea of separate sexes just a social construct like race? Don’t the inter-sexed show us that there are not males and females but a continuum of sex without dividing lines? To an extent, but I think the ability to make sperm or make eggs will divide the vast majority of the population pretty efficiently. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/3 "2005-11-05T06:07:51Z")
But how many people are intersexed? I think the vast majority of people either DEFINITELY have a penis or they DEFINITELY have a vagina. So some women are pretty butch, but that doesn’t mean they have a mini penis dangling between their legs (at least, I presume they don’t). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/4 "2005-11-05T06:10:32Z")
Hoo boy, gender theory, I ought to have enough sense to stay out of this one… :smack: Here’s an anecdote: The early 20th-century anarchist Emma Goldman was giving a talk once and said, “After all, there isn’t much difference between men and women.” A heckler shouted: “Three cheers for the difference!” ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/5 "2005-11-05T07:44:16Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Hoo boy, gender theory, I ought to have enough sense to stay out of this one… :smack: > > Here’s an anecdote: The early 20th-century anarchist Emma Goldman was giving a talk once and said, “After all, there isn’t much difference between men and women.” > > A heckler shouted: “Three cheers for the difference!” Ha! cite? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/6 "2005-11-05T07:57:33Z")
I went to grad school in the behavioral neuroscience or sexual differentiation. You question is too complex to answer in less than a book but I wiill give you an extremely brief summary. XX and XY chromosomes don’t determine sex as directly as you might thing. They control what gonads the person gets. The goands control the production of hormones that actually control much of sexual differentiation in the brain and body. Hormonal icontrol of differentiation can get altered in many different. Most parts of the body and brain default to a “female” pattern. If hormonal influence is blocked like in androgen sensitivty disorder then you can get a genetic male that appears to be female. Development often has “critical periods” in which the body and brain need a certain hormone coupled with receptors to differentiate properly right then and there. This doesn’t always happen. It is my opinion that homosexuality, at least in males, is due to an altered hormonal influence during a critical period on parts of the hypothalamus. Just an educated guess, but sexual identity differences might be due to something similar. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/7 "2005-11-05T08:12:37Z")
Cite? I remember reading it in the first edition (1975) of _The People’s Almanac_. I don’t know where they got it from. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/8 "2005-11-05T08:31:36Z")
The fact that there is a gray area in between the two ends of a spectrum does not negate the existence of those ends. In any case, gender and race are two entirely different questions, so the parallel you draw in your OP is not a valid one. The concept of race is cultural and linguistic; the concept of gender is biological. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/9 "2005-11-05T15:36:03Z")
Some things starting to get mixed here-- gender and sex are not the same thing. Of course gender is culturally constructed to some degree. The OP is asking about biological sex. Male and female, not masculine and feminine. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/10 "2005-11-05T17:54:36Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Hoo boy, gender theory, I ought to have enough sense to stay out of this one… :smack: > > Here’s an anecdote: The early 20th-century anarchist Emma Goldman was giving a talk once and said, “After all, there isn’t much difference between men and women.” > > A heckler shouted: “Three cheers for the difference!” The story was told as originating in the French Assembly, with dates as far back the French Revolution, though it was in French: “Vive la difference!” That’s become a catchphrase. Partridge says it first became prominent in 1919 or so, and is derived from a French toast. (Not not that kind of French toast – what you say before having a drink.) I doubt Goldman was involved. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/11 "2005-11-05T20:02:19Z")
I think, that if you could somehow find someone over the age of 2 oblivious to both sexual dimorphism and to social concepts of the sexes, and you asked them to categorize 1000 people, and then to make generalizations about the categories created/observed, sex is one of the ones that would be mentioned, and the categories would be two in number and would fairly closely correspond to what we think of as the biological difference between men and women. It’s hard to prove that, though, because all the people I could ask are extremely well-acquainted with the social concepts. So I could (at least theoretically) be wrong and it could be strictly a social construct. What’s more obviously (to me) a social construct is the penumbra of beliefs and assumptions about what those differences _mean_, especially when you move from morphology to behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/12 "2005-11-05T20:06:54Z")
While there are some ambiguous cases out there, I think 99% of humanity can be neatly divided into the category of _Definitely Male_ (XY Chromosome and a Penis) and _Definitely Female_ (XX chromosome and a vagina). In cases where it may not be clear (the 1% or less that are intersexed or transgendered), I say let the individual decide for themself what they are. If they don’t identify with either we can just call this person “Intersexed” and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/13 "2005-11-05T20:56:36Z")
> [@](#): > > the inter-sexed show us that there are not males and females but a continuum of sex without dividing lines? Without going into any judgement-calls, they are basically biological acidents, and often dead-ends. They often can’t breed, or have serious troubles doing so for social, mental, or physical reasons. Some mutations in this regard are not harmful and breed out after a generation. There’s been some studies that suggest that XYY males are not uncommon and more or less normal. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/14 "2005-11-05T21:09:54Z")
> [@csharpmajor](#): > > But how many people are intersexed? A handy site for that is the website of the Intersex Sociaty of North America: [http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency](http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency) They detail the frequency for a handful of intersex conditions, while pointing it’s hard to tell what exactly counts as intersex anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/15 "2005-11-06T03:00:15Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > What’s more obviously (to me) a social construct is the penumbra of beliefs and assumptions about what those differences _mean_, especially when you move from morphology to behavior. Apologizing for the “me too” post, but **AHunter3** has expressed exactly how I think about it, so I endorse his thoughts on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/16 "2005-11-06T06:08:32Z")
> [@Lazz](#): > > A handy site for that is the website of the Intersex Sociaty of North America: > [http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency](http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency) > They detail the frequency for a handful of intersex conditions, while pointing it’s hard to tell what exactly counts as intersex anyway. From the aforementioned site: > [@](#): > > Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life. Since all fetuses start out the same and it takes correct in utero events to make the eventual differentiation called for by chromosomes happen I’d have to say that the difference between the sexes is not that huge. It’s pretty much all hormones and opinion, seems to me… ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/17 "2005-11-06T06:48:10Z")
If we’ve reached an age where we can no longer tell the difference, then we’re ALL in trouble! …Just don’t drop the soap! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/18 "2005-11-06T08:28:05Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > Just don’t drop the soap! 😃 Rape is not a joking matter, as you would know if you had ever been raped. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Nilor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@Nilor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nilor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/19 "2005-11-06T08:56:58Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Rape is not a joking matter, as you would know if you had ever been raped. :mad: \ Not much is if you’ve ever gone through it \ To address the question raised by the OP, I think, as **Shagnasty** said, it depends on how you are going to decide what sex someone is. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615/20 "2006-01-21T06:57:05Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > The concept of race is cultural and linguistic; the concept of gender is biological. Didn’t you mean that the other way around? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-really-males-and-females/329615.md?page=2)