# Are there rudder pedals in the B-2? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2001, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016 "2001-10-12T12:33:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/1 "2001-10-12T12:33:08Z")
I assume there are rudder pedals in the B-2, but what control surfaces do they move? The stick (or yoke – I don’t know which the B-2 has, but I thought I heard they had sidesticks) would control pitch and roll as usual. How is yaw controlled in the B-2? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/2 "2001-10-12T12:51:07Z")
Yaw is controlled by drag flaps - the plane extends a small flap on the inboard side of the turn that increases drag on that side, pulling the plane aside. It also produces a little lift that compensates for induced roll. The B-2 is entirely fly-by-wire, with no mechanical connection from the stick to the control surfaces. Turns are commanded by stick movement alone. Fly-by-wire fighters don’t have rudder pedals either. The autopilot is so sophisticated that in theory the crew simply has to fire up and taxi into position, then enter an “Execute Mission” command, and can then take a nap. ---
**Author:** ![Kilt-wearin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kilt-wearin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilt-wearin_man)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/3 "2001-10-12T12:57:16Z")
It’s probably safe to assume that all the controls you’d expect to find are right there in the cockpit of a B-2. Pilots learn to fly by stick and rudder, so it makes sense to include sticks and rudders in the new designs - regardless of what control surfaces they’re actually moving. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/4 "2001-10-12T13:00:32Z")
The new Tower Hobbies catalog has a remote control B-2 model. Wouldn’t it be fun to make one with, say, a 40-foot wingspan – with foam-and-fiberglass construction, and registered in the Experimental category? Make sure you have a transponder! > [@](#): > > Fly-by-wire fighters don’t have rudder pedals either. Are you saying the B-2 _doesn_ have rudder pedals? Do the pilots practice in an Ercoupe? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/5 "2001-10-12T13:13:10Z")
What’s with the smilie? You asked a question and I gave you the answer. The B-2 doesn’t have rudder pedals. Neither does an F-16 or any other modern fighter. When the controller (yes, a sidestick on the B-2) is moved to one side, that doesn’t move a set of rods connected to ailerons; it simply inputs a signal into the computer that a turn is desired. The computer then moves the aileron on one wing up, on the other wing down, and the drag flap on the inside wing, by the amount necessary to create a turn with a rate proportional to the stick movement. The Ercoupe did the same thing but entirely mechanically. Airbus airliners wouldn’t need them either if their pilots never had reason to override the computer - that’s not an option on the B-2, which _needs_ the computer for basic stability. Possibly pilots find themselves pushing on one footrest harder than the other while moving the sidestick, but so what? All the control inputs that actually move the plane come via the sidestick anyway. What special training would be required in that regard? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/6 "2001-10-12T13:19:15Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s with the smilie? You asked a question and I gave you the answer. I understand fly-by-wire. I had assumed that rudderpedals were linked to the fly-by-wire system and were used normally. As for the smilie, I was thinking of the image of the pilots learning to fly a $2 billion bomber by practicing in a $9,000, 55-year-old airplane. (Which also reminds me of Matthias Rust. Why spend $2 billion on a bomber that can sneak into the Soviet Union when a German boy can do the same thing in a $17,000 (at the time) Cessna.) Just a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/7 "2001-10-12T13:56:11Z")
WHA? “FBW aircraft don’t have rudder pedals” ?? I have to drop the BS flag on that one. Rudder control is most certainly there on an F-16 and all other FBW aircraft, as how else would a pilot tell the aircraft to yaw? Yaw isn’t just for making coordinated turns, especially in a fighter. You may be mistaken: FBW means the rudder is LESS important, the computer can coordinate a turn itself, but it is by no means completely removed. As for the B2, yes, it apparently has rudder pedals. A quick websearch turned up this [this picture of the B-2 office](http://www.flatrock.org.nz/images/us_graphics/flying/b2a_spirit_cockpit.jpg). Pedals clearly visible. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/8 "2001-10-12T14:43:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*What’s with the smilie? You asked a question and I gave you the answer. > > The B-2 doesn’t have rudder pedals. Neither does an F-16 or any other modern fighter.\*\* I have on two occasions placed my bum in a F-16 seat and the plane does indeed have pedals. S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/9 "2001-10-12T15:52:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*The B-2 doesn’t have rudder pedals. Neither does an F-16 or any other modern fighter. > > … > The autopilot is so sophisticated that in theory the crew simply has to fire up and taxi into position, then enter an “Execute Mission” command, and can then take a nap.\*\* How do they taxi? As in “taxi into position”. Does the stick magically control the nosewheel? ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/10 "2001-10-12T16:06:44Z")
From [Vipers in the Storm](http://www.vipersinthestorm.com): > [@](#): > > Pilots generally rest their heels on the floorboard with their feet on the pedals themselves. Note, however, that in the F-16, pilots rarely, if ever, use the rudder pedals. I know that I never did when I was flying. > > The tops of the rudder pedals are used for braking. Once you land and complete the aerobrake, the nose wheel drops down and at that point you can begin braking. You do this by pushing forward with your toes on the tops of the rudder pedals. The feel is somewhat of a spongy feeling and the brakes are hydraulically activated. > > I hope this helps. > > Keith “Rosey” Rosenkranz Keith Rosenkranz was an F-16 pilot in the Gulf War, and has written a book “Vipers in the Storm”. He also taught my brother to fly T-38s. [Here is a picture](http://www.vipersinthestorm.com/html/section_2__page_2.html) of Keith (middle) with my brother (left). It’s the topmost picture on the page. ---
**Author:** ![aschrott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@aschrott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aschrott)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/11 "2001-10-12T16:06:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*The B-2 doesn’t have rudder pedals. Neither does an F-16 or any other modern fighter. \*\* As has been said, this is **patently** false, and entirely inappropriate for this forum, since answers should be based on fact. Aside from ample evidence available through pictures and personal experience – I myself have sat in the cockpit(s) of an F-16, an F-15, and an F-18 – simple logic will tell you that even if there is no actual rudder on a plane it still needs the control inputs from rudder pedals. If a simple movement of a control stick in a plane resulted in a coordinated turn (i.e. both aileron and rudder – or faux rudder as the case may be – inputs), then the aerobatic maneuvers that are standard procedure for military fighters, such as aileron-induced “barrel” rolls, would be impossible. Also, pilots need independent rudder control to adjust for wind shear while landing. If they had to bank to do so the results would be disastrous. ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/12 "2001-10-12T16:12:13Z")
(I should have linked to the page that quote came from, sorry.) Vipers in the Storm forum: [Re: Rudder pedals](http://www.vipersinthestorm.com/forums/lounge/index.cgi?read=257) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/13 "2001-10-12T17:34:34Z")
I happened to be flipping channels the other day, and noticed that the crazy croc hunter guy was in an F-16 (don’t ask me why, I missed the beginning of the show). As they went through some high-G manuevers, a conversation something like this came out: PILOT: You were pressing on the rudder pedals there weren’t you? CROC HUNTER: um, yeah, I might have been PILOT: Don’t do that. I was surprised that they did not disable the controls in the back seat while an obviously unqualified pilot sat there. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/14 "2001-10-12T17:40:14Z")
> [@](#): > > PILOT: You were pressing on the rudder pedals there weren’t you? > CROC HUNTER: um, yeah, I might have been > PILOT: Don’t do that. That reminds me of a time I took a friend out for a helicopter ride. He got out to take some photos (which didn’t turn out, BTW). When he got back in I took off and turned-in-place to get a look downwind. I was sinking, so I pulled up on the collective. Seemed hard, and I was still sinking. Getting a little concerned. I looked over to the left, and my friend had his leg hanging our of the door and was trying to get the mud off of his shoe. His knee was hooked over the collective lever on that side. ME: Get your leg in. HIM: (Pulls his leg in.) ME: Don’t do that again. ---
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/15 "2001-10-13T01:22:44Z")
You may be interested in knowing that the RAH-66 Comanche (2 prototypes flying) does not have any tail-rotor pedals. The fly by wire system uses a side arm controller, and yaw is controled by twisting the stick. Limited “collective” control is available by pulling up or down on the stick, and larger thrust commands are done thru a more conventional “collective” stick. And, speaking of unrated passengers, I spent a week’s worth of flights in the front seat of an Apache, with an instructor pilot in the back. (I was doing some engineer stuff). One time, he noticed something amiss with the 30 mm Chain Gun, and I had to straighten it out. PILOT “Over on the left panel, see that switch labeled GUN?” ME “Yeah…” PILOT “Switch it to MANUAL for me” ME “I understand you want me to switch the GUN to MANUAL?” ME thinking - keep your hands away from that trigger! PILOT “Yes, then next to it, cycle that over to STOW” ME “Okay, you got it” Followed by a satisfying thunk in the seat as the gun found its home. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/16 "2001-10-13T02:57:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by douglips \* > \*\*How do they taxi? As in “taxi into position”. Does the stick magically control the nosewheel? \*\* Large jetliners have little wheels that steer the nosewheel, separate from the yoke or the rudder pedals. It is concievable that military jets have the same thing. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by aschrott_ > **If a simple movement of a control stick in a plane resulted in a coordinated turn (i.e. both aileron and rudder – or faux rudder as the case may be – inputs), then the aerobatic maneuvers that are standard procedure for military fighters, such as aileron-induced “barrel” rolls, would be impossible. Also, pilots need independent rudder control to adjust for wind shear while landing. If they had to bank to do so the results would be disastrous.** This is basically correct, but I’m not sure under what wind shear conditions the rudder would be essential. Wind shear causes problems when a strong head wind turns into a tail wind causing a rapid loss in airspeed and a spin/stall condition. Perhaps you meant cross wind? Cross winds require rudder application cross controlled with the ailerons (ie right rudder and left aileron when encountering a cross wind from the left) in order to keep the wheels pointed down the runway while tracking the runway centerline. ---
**Author:** ![aschrott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@aschrott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aschrott)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/17 "2001-10-13T05:04:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr. Lao \* > \*\*Perhaps you meant cross wind? Cross winds require rudder application cross controlled with the ailerons (ie right rudder and left aileron when encountering a cross wind from the left) in order to keep the wheels pointed down the runway while tracking the runway centerline. \*\* Yes, I did mean cross wind. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/18 "2001-10-13T11:26:25Z")
- - - I don’t know specifically about the B2, but flying wings before it did have control that amounted to “rudders”. They were either clamshell or split-aileron type. The clamshell is two trailing flaps split horizontally that fold closed during normal flight like a clamshell, and when it is actuated the top one tilts up and the lower one tilts down, creating drag on that side of the plane (I have only seen this used on smaller/older wings). The split-aileron requires at least two sets of ailerons on each wing; when the “rudder” on that side is activated, one aileron is tilted up while the other is tilted down, creating drag. - The space shuttle (apparently) uses this method as a speed brake with its rudder; when the shuttle comes in for a landing, in some photos the two surfaces on the rudder are tilted in opposite directions. ~ - You can design an airplane to eliminate the need for one or even _two_ of the control axis’ (rudder controls left/right, throttle controls climb/cruise/descent), but not without sacrificing quite a bit of lift and control. - MC ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-rudder-pedals-in-the-b-2/87016/19 "2001-10-14T16:01:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr. Lao \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by douglips \* > > \*\*How do they taxi? As in “taxi into position”. Does the stick magically control the nosewheel? \*\* > > Large jetliners have little wheels that steer the nosewheel, separate from the yoke or the rudder pedals. It is concievable that military jets have the same thing.\*\* Airliners use the nosewheel steering at low speeds only, while taking off and landing the rudder pedals are still used for directional control > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by aschrott_ > \*\*If a simple movement of a control stick in a plane resulted in a coordinated turn (i.e. both aileron and rudder – or faux rudder as the case may be – inputs), then the aerobatic maneuvers that are standard procedure for military fighters, such as aileron-induced “barrel” rolls, would be impossible. \*\* Actually, a Barrel Roll would be one of the few manouvres that you _could_ perform on an aircraft that had no rudder pedals but maintained balanced flight automatically as it is a coordinated manoeuvre resulting in balanced flight when performed correctly. you are probably thinking of an Aileron Roll or Slow Roll.